What do you all think? 5 more years? 10?


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@!#$....no way its going to get better, just a question of when the US will quit Vietnam style?

I think the next Prez is definitely going to get to mop this up... Bush wont have time to do anything effective in his remaining time. No frigging way unless he drafts 1,000,000 people to go finish up "Bush" style which would wipe most of the population anyways.

Well, Ideally the next president asks for help dealing with Iraq from the UN. I seriously doubt a: that Bush is capable of going to the UN, hat in hand and asking for help, and b: that there will be any possibility of anyone remotely connected to Halliberton admitting they were at anypoint wrong in anything.



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like 4 more years



1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Well, Ideally the next president asks for help dealing with Iraq from the UN. I seriously doubt a: that Bush is capable of going to the UN, hat in hand and asking for help, and b: that there will be any possibility of anyone remotely connected to Halliberton admitting they were at anypoint wrong in anything.

do you mean get the UN to offer help in iraq kind of like BUSH and BLAIR just did this past week?

I think that we will be over there in a somewhat permanent role. You can't defeat this. It's an Iraqi problem that Iraqi's need to handle, we do nothing but fuel the fire.


"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."

At the rate we are currently going we will be there is 2017.




- 2004 Cavalier - 124k, owned since new

Pret:
Link please? I checked the last week's worth of news from AP/Reuters.. and nothing. You'd think the 2 largest news organisations in the world would have something like that.

No less in big bold letters.



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gam, gam, gam, bush and blair have asked for u.n. help. but you have to realize since
the u.n. sat on there buts for how many years while good old saddam ignored there
b.s. resolutions what makes you think they would help now? the u.n. has become just
a place for crooked polititions to go steel money from. just look at all the cash that was taken from oil for food. theres no profit in it so why help? the u.n. had its time and it did do some good but now its compleatly useless. what good are there resolutions if they wont do anything to inforce them? oh slap me with some sanctions oh i'm soooo
scared i can almost imagine sadam saying that. but slap his ass with a few 1000 troops and he hides in a little hole. these two bit little dictators need to be shown that there will be a responce that they will not like if they ack like sadam was. and hey its brought some countries back to the table to talk so whats wrong with this again? i'm just saying that sometimes you need to sack up throw on the body armor load up the troops and kick some a$$. look what happened in 1941. just think how much differently the world would have turned out if we took out hitler. how mant countless 1000s that we could have saved it makes me sick just thinking about it. whos to say sadam wouldnt go try somrthing like this. hey we allready know he kills anyone who doesnt agree with him just ask the curds. oh wait you cant THERE ALL DEAD!!! gased in the middle of the night while they slept. hmmm.... very hitleresque. im not saying
he WOULD do that but in 50 years when people look back i'm glad that there wont be any body saying that 500,000 people wouldnt have died if the u.n. had acted in iraq.

as for how long we should stay.... till the job is done.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

It'll be over when Iraq runs out of oil

^ thats fine with me. better to wast there oil than ours.

if i were to guess though.. 5 years.

chris


"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

jackalope wrote:gam, gam, gam, bush and blair have asked for u.n. help. but you have to realize since
the u.n. sat on there buts for how many years while good old saddam ignored there
b.s. resolutions what makes you think they would help now?

Jack jack jack... they asked for help on THEIR terms IN 2003... Basically the request was for the UN to help, but be under US military direction and maybe, just maybe the rest of the world gets a piece of Halliburton's no-bid rebuilding contracts.

I said this to Pretjah, I'll say it to you, link please?

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the u.n. has become just a place for crooked polititions to go steel money from.

And the US Senate/Congress/Whitehouse hasn't!?!?

Boy, chalk one up for naïvite.

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just look at all the cash that was taken from oil for food. theres no profit in it so why help?

There's no point now. And oil for food was put forward by the US, and the resolution was authored by the Americans. Please, before you start griping about outside agencies (yea, yea, Koffi Annan's son... Seems to me no one held Dubya's DWI conviction or a shady ending of a cocaine posession investigation, or an even shadier end to dubya's "great" TX ANG career against his father...) read up on the sponsoring nations, and realise that what's going on in Iraq now far dwarfs what might have been taken in O.f.F. programme.

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the u.n. had its time and it did do some good but now its compleatly useless. what good are there resolutions if they wont do anything to inforce them? oh slap me with some sanctions oh i'm soooo scared i can almost imagine sadam saying that.

If by that you mean that the US and UK should become the world's police, thanks but no thanks. The UN isn't perfect, and for the US to take its ball and go on its own is plain childish. But, if the US and UK wanted so badly to have their little skirmish, they can damned well foot the bill to fix their mistake.

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but slap his ass with a few 1000 troops and he hides in a little hole.

More like 150,000 troops, and unless you're missing it, there's still no stable and loyal Iraqi Military, or Police force.

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these two bit little dictators need to be shown that there will be a responce that they will not like if they ack like sadam was.

Two-bit? how's about telling that to the Sierra Leoni "rebel" forces, or the warring factions in Coate D'Ivore... Oh wait, too hot to handle, and no oil or vendetta to settle. If the US is going to be the world's police, then why not go into a place where there has been blood shed unchecked for close to 35-40 years? Why not teach a REAL dictator the meaning of justice. Oh wait... that's right... Africa.. Somalia... Too hot, no Oil, no petty vendetta.

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and hey its brought some countries back to the table to talk so whats wrong with this again?

WHAT COUNTRIES??? WHAT TABLE???

In case you've developed amnesia, North Korea was threatening to go ballistic, and what did dubya do? Offered the same deal Clinton hammered out 6 years ago! That's not called progress, it's stagnation. It seems to me that all the other banana republics and communist states are still ticking along just fine. Hell if it was so much of an overwhelming show of force, why the hell did Iran just elect another radical?

Seriously, put your coke bottle glasses on, Iraq was just a simple ugly show of force on a well-contained dictator.

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i'm just saying that sometimes you need to sack up throw on the body armor load up the troops and kick some a$$. look what happened in 1941.

Number 1: 1941? are you bloody kidding me? WWII started in 1939 when Germany invaded poland.
Number 2: there were definite and overt acts of aggression leading up to WWII
Number 3: Things have changed dramatically since WWII, ie: overhead satellites that have the ability to track radiation signatures from orbit.

Sometimes you have to do something, but better do the right thing than rush in... How Texan.

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just think how much differently the world would have turned out if we took out hitler. how mant countless 1000s that we could have saved it makes me sick just thinking about it.

Even in 1936, Hilter was a FIGURE HEAD. "The Final Solution" was penned by Nazi party chiefs (ie Himmeler, Gerbils, Goering) and Hitler signed off on it. He was not to be excused, because he sold the Germans on the ideas, but he didn't have a hand in Nazi Docterine after 1938.

If Hitler had been taken out, it would have likely been Himmeler to take over. You want to go off on a flight of fancy into "What if," at least be educated about what really happened, chum.

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whos to say sadam wouldnt go try somrthing like this. hey we allready know he kills anyone who doesnt agree with him just ask the curds. oh wait you cant THERE ALL DEAD!!! gased in the middle of the night while they slept. hmmm.... very hitleresque.

I suppose that the US was just fine and dandy with the Gassing of the Kurds since it HAPPENED IN 1989!!! Oh, the USA poo-pooed the happening for a few months and then went right on back to feeding the Iraqis the very bioagents and chemical weapons manufacturing materials up until the invasion of Kuwait.

BTW, The Kurds are NOT all dead, wake the hell up. The Northern Alliance was a group of Kurds, gypsies and non-sunni muslims that banded together and captured a good bit of Iraqi/Soviet ordinance.

BTW, if you want to get technical, Gassing people where they sleep is something the Kaiser did in WWI (Mustard gas)... If you wanted to make a proper allusion to Hitler, they would have been rounded up, starved, gassed, then cremated.

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im not saying he WOULD do that but in 50 years when people look back i'm glad that there wont be any body saying that 500,000 people wouldnt have died if the u.n. had acted in iraq.

Actually, at most 180,000 people would have died... if you want to compare, over 1,000,000 have died in 25 years in Sierra Leone. Your call on who's the worse off chief.

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as for how long we should stay.... till the job is done.

On that, you'll have no arguement, I'd also like to have seen the sentiment in Afghanistan... you know? Where Usama Bin Laden actually WAS? (of note, I think he'll be found in Pakistan after dying of kidney failure... coulda had him in Tora Bora... That would have been a real victory).






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^^^^OWNAGE!!!


I think when there IS a stable Iraqi military or police force we will withdraw. No telling how long that could take.


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Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.

gam your cool and all just take off the blinders it ok i understand but since im not a premium member i dont want to use up all my posts here. notice i didnt say waste cause even tho you may not agree with me i still think you a hell of a debater and very
well informed even if some of your info may not be right but hey i'm sure mines not either. so gam to you i say keep up the good fight and continue to make people think
my hats off to you my friend. i'll be reading and keeping an eye out to make sure your info doesnt lean to far to the left.

hats off take a bow and exit stage left. peace out.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Well, it's only $3 a month

And yeah.. I flubbed it out with the quotes... Damn... Shoulda followed my own advice

Jbody2nr: Yeah, I may be part of the police bit in Jordan, but that's still up in the air, and the Military will probably need to be paid more than al-queda offers before they become loyal... Like I said before, kids don't give a rat's ass about your ideals of right and wrong, they just know when they're hungry and you're not doing anything about it.



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GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:And yeah.. I flubbed it out with the quotes... Damn... Shoulda followed my own advice

All better now...

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Well, it's only $3 a month

And yeah.. I flubbed it out with the quotes... Damn... Shoulda followed my own advice

Jbody2nr: Yeah, I may be part of the police bit in Jordan, but that's still up in the air, and the Military will probably need to be paid more than al-queda offers before they become loyal... Like I said before, kids don't give a rat's ass about your ideals of right and wrong, they just know when they're hungry and you're not doing anything about it.

Thats what I would like to stress. We do NEED to do something about it. I agree with why were fighting but, there IS more that needs to be done. Some more than others.


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Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.

Well, in my informal history reading, doing "something" usually complicates things, doing the right thing is usually not immediately popular, but it shows quiet dividends as things progress.

I still think invasion into Iraq was rash, and not well planned (to put it as mildly as Dove Soap), but in order to turn out the better from that decision, it's going to take a lot of forethought, planning and commitment from at least the next 2 presidents. Fifteen years, I figure Iraq ought to be goo to go it on their own, I may eat my words, but after that time, I'd figure there would be a lot more stability.




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^^^ Yeah your probably right but, after 9/11 who's gonna argue with a war on terror, i.e. invasion of iraq. It was done with haste because there WAS a public outcry for it. It could have been planned better, but then again anything could be planned better.

And as a fact, the U.S. will probably never COMPLETELY withdraw from Iraq, we will probably set up some kind of base or outpost or something to keep an eye on Iran and the oil.


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Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.

That, Would be a very, very bad move. It would ensure either complete de-stabilisation of the area because of the US's presence in a holy land (Iraq has 2-3 Muslim Holy sites IIRC I believe it's in Tikrit and Fallujah) and the closeness to Israel, it would appear to many that the US is beginning to try to wipe out Islam. I don't share that idea, but, it's pretty hard to argue with fanatics.

Also, before the war, CNN, TIME Magazine, CNBC and even Fox News pegged support for a unilateral invasion of Iraq at less than 43% (again, IIRC... I seem to remember Fox airing the survey once at like 11:45 pm. I was flipping through during a break on Leno. ).

Either way, playing what if is a fun game, unproductive as it is. I know that at this point, if the US/UK did in fact appeal to the UN for help in Iraq (which I haven't seen a link or news report of, yet) Bush at al have squandered what respect, admiration and dignity the US had abroad since 9/11/01.

I shudder to think, but I've read more than a couple right wing blogs that have the notion that "the USA can now afford to do away with allies that do not fall in line." It seems that those ideals would have been crushed if there was an appeal to the UN. I don't think that dubya would like (in all his texan pride) to see the smug looks on some diplomat's faces.

Maybe the G8 will prove me wrong. Were it my butt in one of the seats there, I doubt I'd be reproachful, but I would sincerely ask what the original idea was, and then how could help be best administered. I respect a person that can admit when they're wrong, and after that, people's suffering and long-term stability take precidence.




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Jbody2nr wrote:^^^ Yeah your probably right but, after 9/11 who's gonna argue with a war on terror, i.e. invasion of iraq. It was done with haste because there WAS a public outcry for it. It could have been planned better, but then again anything could be planned better.

And as a fact, the U.S. will probably never COMPLETELY withdraw from Iraq, we will probably set up some kind of base or outpost or something to keep an eye on Iran and the oil.

I'll argue with the 'War on Terror.' I never thought we should have gone into Iraq in the first place. People continually make links between Iraq and 9/11 even after the 9/11 commission (Remember them? They spent months trying to link Iraq to 9/11 but did so unsuccessfully) said that there are none. There have been more worldwide 'terrorist' attacks since the 'War on Terror' started than ever before. I don't think the war on terror will be any more successful than our wonderful war on drugs that locks up thousands of innocent people every day. Sure, having better intelligence and preventing events like 9/11 from happening again is great. But we had the intelligence, we just chose to ignore it. Maybe competence in all of our branches of government is something that we need to focus on as citizens. We need to stop voting people into office based on religion and start voting them in based upon their competence, intelligence, and ability to communicate with other nations effectively.

Putin Appeals for Stability in Iraq

By Maria Danilova
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

SVETLOGORSK, Kaliningrad Region - President Vladimir Putin on Sunday called on the world community to work together to bring stability to violence-wracked Iraq, saying after meeting with French and German leaders that past disputes should not prevent future cooperation.

"All of the disagreements on the Iraqi problem must remain in the past," Putin said.

"We should be pooling efforts with the United States and with the countries that are present in Iraq today and that have assumed the function of promoting stability in that country in order to help the Iraqi people assume responsibility for its future," he said.

Like France and Germany, Russia sharply opposed the invasion of Iraq and has expressed concerns about continuing violence and increased attacks on civilians and soldiers that have been blamed largely on Sunni Arab insurgents.

Meeting with Putin near the Baltic Sea port of Kaliningrad were French President Jacques Chirac and German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, who came at Putin's invitation to mark the 750th anniversary of the exclave's founding.

Earlier the two leaders told Putin that the positive relations between Russia and the EU were vital for world stability and for the prosperity of Kaliningrad, which is cut off from the rest of Russia by EU members Poland and Lithuania.

"The relationship between Russia and the European Union is essential for world equilibrium," Chirac told Putin.

Putin defended Russia's decision last month to reject a proposed treaty with Estonia that would have delineated a final border between the two former Soviet republics. Moscow balked at Estonian lawmakers' proposal to insert a statement about the five-decade Soviet occupation of the Baltic states.

Talks between the three leaders also focused on Iran's nuclear program, North Korea and other issues.

Putin largely enjoys the support of the French and German leaders, though some domestic critics blame the two countries for not confronting him on human rights abuses, such as those committed by Russian forces in the brutal war in Chechnya.

The three leaders were also attending ceremonies commemorating the founding of Kaliningrad, a city that was founded in 1255 by the Teutonic Order of Knights and called Koenigsberg until Soviet troops took it over in 1945.

The festivities, which were attended by the leaders of all of Russia's 89 regions, were meant to reassert Russia's commitment to this region, which has been separated geographically from the rest of Russia since the Soviet collapse.

"In its heart, [this city] will always be called Koenigsberg, although this absolutely does not concern any territorial claims," Schroeder said.

Notable was the absence of the leaders of Poland and Lithuania, whom Putin did not invite - sparking criticism that he was paying too little attention to Russia's closest neighbors to the west, both former Soviet satellites.

"We are celebrating the 750th anniversary of Kaliningrad/Koenigsberg as an internal Russian event," Putin said.
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Putin needs Iraqi oil as much as the rest of the world does.

mrgto: That's a great thought... Russia exports oil, and it's chief buyer is the USA.

Would you care to rephrase that last sentence?



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GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:mrgto: That's a great thought... Russia exports oil, and it's chief buyer is the USA.

Would you care to rephrase that last sentence?

IE it only helps them if the US buys MORE from them, if Iraq is stabalized, it only benefits THEM.

I would think a destabilised Iraq would benefit Russia more than a stable and productive Iraq would... If the oil wells aren't pumping in Iraq, they're going to have to pump more in Russia.

Is my logic flawed?



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