The reason I believe Gam about the DNA thing is that he does it for a liveing. I have no reason to doubt him at his word on the inner workings of DNA testing because as of yet he has never given me reason to doubt his word. He and I may disagree on alot of things but I respect him and have no reason to believe he has lyed.

HAHA if the steel wouldn't weaken due to a jet fuel fire then why does a paper fueled fire cause steel to buckle? And why would steel from a paper fueled fire that is only supporting a roof colapse and you not think that steel under the weight of the upper floors wouldn't fail? As for your "explosions" the fire fighters heard at the moment the buildings came down I ask you have you ever heard concrete snapping due to weight?
Do you remember the last big earth quake in San Fansico where the expressway fell down? I do. I also remember people and fire fighters saying it sounded like a bomb going off and then the road deck collapsed. So did the govt bomb the roads out in Cali.
too? The fact that no explosives or remains of explosives or anyone who planted them has ever come to light should be a clue to the truth about them.

Guys as I've said and as I've shown thru stateing Gam is 100% correct that the DNA was lyed about I am willing to admit I'm wrong about the whole thing. All I ask for is proof. Not hearsay but hard evidence. The kind that could put someone on death row. You know the kind of proof that says BEYOND A REASONABLE SHADOW OF A DOUBT. I know you may be from Canada and I won't pretend to know how your justice system works but I would hope that no one is on death row who hasn't been 100% proved they belong there. Or if you have no DP cause I really don't know then we'll say life in prison. Give me something that could convince a jury that someone should be exicuted and I'll say I'm wrong. Till then sorry guys not buying it.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

I should clarify something here:

I'm not stating that it is impossible to have gotten DNA from victims in the Pentagon. Not at all.

I am, however, stating that there isn't anyway that DNA could have survived for all 289 persons in the event that a fire hot enough to vaporise the airframe of the plane did, in fact occurr. Human remains cremate at 1500-2000 degrees farenheit, and all recoverable DNA types are not possible to be amplified after 500 degrees farenheit core temperature. Aluminum's boiling point is 4472.6 Farenheit (I pulled 3000 deg F off the top of my head, sorry). There is a disparity of over 2400 degrees F between the official story that the airframe portions just "vaporised" and the claim that all 289 victims were identified by DNA analysis.

Either: the Airframe was altered or destroyed and there was an error in reported story that all victims were identified by DNA, or, the fire was not hot enough to have destroyed the airframe, and individual identifications could be made.

In reading a couple of articles, the latter is more plausible, because the human body auto-cremates (ie. all body tissues turn to ash) at 1500 F, but, this temperature must be maintained for over 2 hours. Assuming that the aircraft was burning hot enough to induce the upper elements, wings, engines and tail sections of the airframe to vaporise, it would stand to reason that the passenger's bodies would be vaporised as well.

Which would consequently lead one to question what happened to the airframe, tail sections, wings and engines?



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Mike: the motive is money and political agenda. Bush at the time had some pretty low ratings and faith in the government was pretty low--what better way to either (a) stage a terror attack and wipe out a mere 3,000 out of 500,000,000 people, or (b), contract the job out to a group of terrorists? It would be a great way to pull the country in line behind the white elephant of patriotism and the sense of vengeance agfainst those that did it.

I'm not saying this is what happened, but i find it a plausible scenario. It could be a true act of agression against the U.S., or it could be that the government engineered it.

I seriously though, don't know what to believe since i don't believe in, believe, or trust the government or the press.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Jackalope wrote:The fact that no explosives or remains of explosives or anyone who planted them has ever come to light should be a clue to the truth about them.

It'd be quite difficult to do considering the fact they started hauling off the rubble right after it happened without even so much as a couple days for forensics to go through it. Take your head out of your ass and open your eyes, a LOT of shady stuff went on that day.

Jack: the fuel doesn't matter, it's the temperature, type of steel and the mechanical stress that the steel is under during the fire. The steel used in WTC 1&2 was rated to not deform and fail in fire of over 2000 degrees F for 6 hours including 150% of the rated dead and live loads.

The end investigation by the SEA of NY was truncated as the structural steel in the building was hauled away to a holding site and some of the debris was not able to be preliminarily inspected. As well, the SEA of NY was tasked by FEMA to investigate and test the concrete portions of the structure, which futher complicated the investigation. Also, the SEA of NY and FEMA investigations were looking for a cause of failure without ostensibly being able to catalogue where each piece of steel was placed in the structure before the building failed. There were reported molten pools of steel, and that would indicate that there was a fire MUCH hotter than the 1500 degrees the jet kerosene would have been able to burn at, which would consequently negate being able to tell what caused the failure of that piece of steel if there were pieces of failed steel submerged in the pool.

It should be noted that full failure of a building the size of the WTC has never been attributed to fire... nor, has steel certified to the standard that the WTC steel was certified to, ever deformed to failure in fires of approximately the same temperature for times exceeding 24 hours.

This isn't conclusive, as such, neither is the offical version of what happened... However, my thoughts are focused on the fact that there are far too many leaps that have been made. You want something concrete (so to speak) Jack, so do I, but I'm not looking at hanging guilt on someone... I want to know because the evidence does not tend to support what is being said by official sources.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Precisely GAM. Jackalope keeps going on about "proof, proof, proof," and when I present the same question to him he responds with, "Well, it's widely accepted." *BS

Where is YOU'RE concrete proof? Oh, the Government hauled it all away and wouldn't let anyone but their own onto the scenes where they fabricated evidence.

Whoe Zeke! Whats with the hate! If you can't debate like an adult please don't start.
"Pull my head out of my ass" Zeke ? Let me ask you how many people do you know that were actually on the ground at the Pentagon when it happened? As for me I knew quite a few, some died most lived. A friend of mine in the national guard Sgt Patrick Rucker who was at the time an MP was called to duty as we watched on the news the towers burning. He called us that night on his cell phone and told us how they were gathering up the plane and body parts. I have proof I've seen photos that were not supposed to be released to the general public and they never were. I ask you for proof and demand you give it because I know better! I had friends there I was told what happened. I ask for proof because to shut me up thats what its gonna take. You have none at all and when your called on it you get pissy as proof I would refer you to your previous posts. I ask you for proof that would show the official story is a lie. Anything
any real solid evidence not some web sites that say oh it could have gone either way
but rather PROOF. You all said body parts and debris were found miles away from the impact site in PA yet when I ask for a police report or a coroners report YOU suddenly change the topic of discussion to the Pentagon or the towers. How convenient for you to be able to switch up like that without ever answering the question you were asked. I HAVE answered ever single one of the inane questions posed by you conspiracy theorists with fact and all I get is you dodging them and changing your questions mid-stream. You give second rate web sites as your proof who use eyewitness testamoney as their proof yet when you are shown the same and that it contradicts you or your therioys you suddenly say eyewitnesses are not reliable yet they are your whole basis for your argument! So which is it? Are they reliable or not? Its either one or the other and either way you answer they shoot your argument full of holes! No eyewitnesses are not credible, you just killed your whole argument. Yes eyewitnesses are credible,
then you just discredited your witnesses who say they saw differently!

All you guys are doing is going round in circles dodging questions when I pose them!
This isn't a debate its a circle jerk! If you want you proof of the towers and the Pentagon go read the previous other countless pages where I give you all the proof you ask for.
As for this post it was supposed to be on flight 93 crashing so unless you have those reports in order to shut me up then you still have no proof no matter how loudly you shout or what names you may call. The only thing you've proved is how its impossible for you to stay on topic when confronted with tough questions.

I'm done here as I'm not into circle jerks but thanks just the same. PM me when you find those police and coroners reports for the body parts found miles away as i'm not even gonna bother to check back here again. BUT of coarse you get those reports and I will be back to make a full and contrite apology to you and anyone else from your side of the argument.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Over the past 48 hours PLENTY of references, from expert opions to madia articals of the time have been provided for you.

you have yet to provide one single one.

now put up, or shut up.




Rice.....Part of a balanced Pontiac diet.

Do you really think that that many people in our government would set up such a thing as to kill that many people. If you believe that, then I feel bad for you.

Yeh, mekster--I do.

and to prove it, all I have to do is turn on the TV and watch the news or punch up rense,com to see the latest @!#$ going down.

dont feel sorry for me man, I feel sorry for you in the middle of the empire.




Rice.....Part of a balanced Pontiac diet.

Meckster: Explain why Pearl Harbor was bombed, and the Military knew about it for about 24 hours and never did so much as send a telegraph?

Explain why US Navy sea-men were exposed to the effects of atomic fall-out after a series of explosions off Bikini-atoll in the late 40s?

Explain why the Vietnam war was prolonged well after the point of it being completely un-winnable?

The US Gov't has no problem sacrificing lives... the only difference is, in the past is was for doctrinal beliefs, now its for empire.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Pearl Harbor is a completely different story, I know my WWII history very well so maybe we'll make a debate there, but.......

to end this debate, none of us here no for sure about 9/11, so lets agree to disagree

Jack, there are different grades of stell you know. The steel in question was certified to withstand 2000 deg for several hours. How did an 800 deg fire (at most 1500 deg, assuming complete combustion which would not produce all the black smoke we all saw on TV) warp the steel in 56 minutes?

Let's just deal with that one. We'll take them one at a time. DNA is down, onto the steel. After that we'll talk about the marble being blown off the walls in the lobby.

PAX

I saw the short version of this video a while back and thought it was just a hoax video put together. After watching the 1 hr long vid it has changed my perspective on the whole issue. There are just too many things that don't add up?!

Thats what we have been trying to tell ya'all for 5 freaken years.




Rice.....Part of a balanced Pontiac diet.

Sunbird same to you old buddy old pal, same to you. I've provided plenty of proof over the past 6 months as to these sites are a steaming pile and you just dismiss it with more steaming piles. So untill you have those reports shut up. No reports on flight 93 only prooves my point further, so go ahead keep rambleing on and prooveing me right.
I love it !!

Now on to my reason for posting as I had to deal with someone getting their panties in a twist. I can actualy see and understand why you all call into question the official stort as I just did a Google search and came up with 220,000,000 different hits for 9/11.
220 MILLION !! I checked some of them out and found something very interesting, even tho they all claim to want the truth they all put forth thier own version of events and thier own theroies as to what happened that day. 200 MILLION different versions of what someone thinks. Its no wonder thiers so much mis trust and doubt anymore and all you guys are guilty of is trying to find the truth. Of course with 220 MILLION different versions on the truth WHO do you believe? Who can you belive? I read some of these posts and came to the conclusion that first off in their search for the truth all they have done with their 220MILLION differing ideas is push it further away. How can anyone of us sift thru all that and try to come to any conclusion at all? Well other then these guys are just as clueless as the rest of us its just they have a web site to prove it.

I'm no longer going to argue this topic as something is painfully clear to me now haveing read some of these sites. That is no wonder some of you seem out there to me, its not your fault your trying to get answers and your posed with so much mis and bad information that your right there is no way to tell whats truth and whats fiction anymore. Its a damn shame too cause all you want is for it to just make seance, well thats what I want to. Sure I agree 110% that the officail story doesn't add up but out of the sites I've gone to neither do they.

In short I apologize for calling you aluminum foil hat wearing wack jobs as its not your fault at all for wanting the truth.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

220 million references... There could be multiple hits in each page or sub-page. Welcome to information overload.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

I thought I said "hits" If I didn't then thats what I ment sorry for any confusion. And that Gam is EXACTLY what I'm getting at. How can I fault any of you or myself for only trying to find the truth as to what happened? I can't and as such seeing first hand all of the differing "expert" testamony and statements and eyewitness accounts then there is NO WAY to ever truely know what really happened.

At this point I'd say its fair to say we're in a pissing contest as theres no way to prove or dis-prove anything anymore thanks to all the crap we've been bombarded with. We may as well be argueing the existance of God and the the validity of the Bible. Or which is better Chevy or Ford. Been there done that, I at least see why you guys say what you do even if I myslef still think its crap. But hey who am I to tell you what to believe?

Believe whatever you like as long as it keeps you happy and gives you the answers that your looking for. Myself, I have my answers the proof that I require and I can sleep just fine at night. I wish you all the same.





Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

I dont know how many more times people are going to argue this. I am huge conspiricy Buff. And i belive alot of coverups have taken place.
However, i dont just watch a video and go wow..they are so right. Because its very easy to twist things and/or lie to make them seem better for your story.

Popular science has already proved all the "facts" from that video as Wrong. But what does that matter. The experts speaking for them must be wrong huh.

You guys are @!#$ unbelievable. jackalope has brought up many many points and you continue to argue with him. Im not saying our goverment isnt capable of doing it, but thats not the point. The point is that almost everything you each have said, can be argued, very well i might add, with real facts. WTC went down...you all argue that there wasnt enough heat to buckle the metal. Im sorry but when a @!#$ plane crashes into the side of it, im thinking it breaks down the strucural integrity of the building.

And everyone says that the fire couldnt burn hot enough to bring down the building, but then they argue that a if a jet hit the pentagon, which is build to substain a massive hit, that there would be more damage because of how hot the jet fuel burns. Which one is it?

Roscoe: You're missing the point of the WTC arguement... The metal will bend... its under stress constantly... the heat from the jet fuel fire isn't enough to deform the metal into full building fatigue within the alotted time. The other thing: IF the metal was deformed into failure of the structure, the damage would have forced the building into tipping fall... the WTC complex buildings went STRAIGHT down. On top of that, NYPD fire/rescue had said they not only had the fuel fire under control, but that there were a series of explosions... I'm no Firefighter, but, I'll take them at their word. On top of that, the radio recordings of that day were not released (you might say supressed) for over 3 years after the incident. Doesn't that seem suspicious to you, especially if you call yourself a buff?

Secondly, at the Pentagon, numerous survivors made mention in their de-brief and news reports of distinctly smelling cordite immediately after the fire was supressed. Now, again, I'm no soldier, but, I know that cordite is the generic term given to the smell that a high-explosive emits after it's combusted. Again, jet fuel, gunpowder, etc.... they have distinctive smells... High-explosive does as well... I'm one to take a soldier's word at what they smelled. They might not know what explosive it was, but they know it wasn't fuel.

The way I approach it is, the Government is putting forward a theory of what happened, and they're doing it in such a way that it's disorganised, and the information they released doesn't hash out with what was found in the 9/11 commission, nor with what is physically possible.

Take my word on this, the Pentagon DNA evidence angle was what tweaked my BS Detector, and it's been doing it for the last 3 years (ie, since I learned about the magic of DNA and how it's not a silver bullet). You've done Forensic investigation before (as I remember), you should know what will stand in court and what will not be accepted as meeting the burden of proof.

And, if you're going to say Pop.Science did an article on this particular video, at least do us the courtesy and post the issue/year.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

here ya go GAM:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

now, from reading the other post on this, and a little of my own speculation (I'm nowhere near a mechanical engineer, architect, or otherwise. just going off of a little common sense and life experience), I would imagine that the buildings were designed to collapse on themselves, regardless of damage, thus minimizing damage to the surrounding buildings/area. now, maybe not enough heat was generated to melt the supports, but I'm thinking the amount of heat, combined with the sheer shock of the impact from the plane probably helped start the collapse of the building. I doubt that the government blew that building up. who knows... maybe there were bombs planted, but who's to say it was our people that planted them?

in the other post, someone mentions incomplete combustion which caused the black smoke in the air. being in the Navy for 6 years, and going through all the firefighting training that I did... I learned that a LOT of other things out there can cause black smoke besides a "rich" fuel/air mix. plastics, rubber, synthetics, etc. now, I'm not a firefighter, but we did have to be keen on what type of fire we were going to fight, so we could arm ourselves with the correct firefighting agent. (AFFF is still fun to play with.) we had to know the difference between a white smoke and black smoke fire. we trained more with black smoke fires, as those tend to be more dangerous and more prevalent onboard a ship.

on the Pentagon, and again I'm going to speculate, because I do know how well the goverment covers things up (ya'll forgot to mention an important one... the SR-71, one of my favorite "coverups"). I do believe there was a missle involved. and I do believe it was one of ours. it would not surprised me if there were some sort of "hidden" missle launcher protecting the Pentagon, or at least the inner, more important portions of it. I know there were talks shortly after 9/11 on putting launchers on the White House roof. so, it wouldn't surprise me if they already had them up for other important buildings.

my 2 pennies.




Desert Tuners

“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Roscoe: You're missing the point of the WTC arguement... The metal will bend... its under stress constantly... the heat from the jet fuel fire isn't enough to deform the metal into full building fatigue within the alotted time. The other thing: IF the metal was deformed into failure of the structure, the damage would have forced the building into tipping fall... the WTC complex buildings went STRAIGHT down. On top of that, NYPD fire/rescue had said they not only had the fuel fire under control, but that there were a series of explosions... I'm no Firefighter, but, I'll take them at their word. On top of that, the radio recordings of that day were not released (you might say supressed) for over 3 years after the incident. Doesn't that seem suspicious to you, especially if you call yourself a buff?

Secondly, at the Pentagon, numerous survivors made mention in their de-brief and news reports of distinctly smelling cordite immediately after the fire was supressed. Now, again, I'm no soldier, but, I know that cordite is the generic term given to the smell that a high-explosive emits after it's combusted. Again, jet fuel, gunpowder, etc.... they have distinctive smells... High-explosive does as well... I'm one to take a soldier's word at what they smelled. They might not know what explosive it was, but they know it wasn't fuel.

The way I approach it is, the Government is putting forward a theory of what happened, and they're doing it in such a way that it's disorganised, and the information they released doesn't hash out with what was found in the 9/11 commission, nor with what is physically possible.

Take my word on this, the Pentagon DNA evidence angle was what tweaked my BS Detector, and it's been doing it for the last 3 years (ie, since I learned about the magic of DNA and how it's not a silver bullet). You've done Forensic investigation before (as I remember), you should know what will stand in court and what will not be accepted as meeting the burden of proof.

And, if you're going to say Pop.Science did an article on this particular video, at least do us the courtesy and post the issue/year.

Sorry Gam, it was posted already in one of the other 5 arguments we have had in this forum and i really didnt care to look for it. But Id like to thank you for being about one of the only people that can have a civilized conversation about this.

Yes I do consider myself a "buff". Thats just it, its not a question as to wether or not i see some of this as suspicious, its if i belive them in the first place. Sure A witeness can say well i smelled Cordite. Now a conspiricy buff wouldnt look at that and say well now i think this is a coverup. We are going to look at it and try to find out if what this person is saying is true or not. What you have to remeber is that alot people want one of two things. Two either A. Get the @!#$ home after all this or B. Feels they need to help the officers so whatever makes there story better is what comes out of there mouth. All these people there and you think they all know the smell of cordite let alone what it even is. One person mentioed it and i think it spread like wild fire.


One way i look at it is there are way to many "mistakes" to be a coverup. You see the gov't wether we belive it or not is actually very smart, and they have unlimited resources.
If they wanted to blow up the world trade center, there are 10 different ways they could have done it that would have looked wayyyy better. I dont know about you guys but i watched as the second plane hit the towers and i watched as the crumbled and to me, they looked nothing like a planned explosion. As someone said I would think that the building would be made to implode if at all possible. We wouldnt want half the WTC falling off and crashing to the ground. Imagine how much more damage that would do,

Actually, it wasn't "a" witness... it was about 200 witnesses, and most have combat or explosives experience. As I said, I'll take their word on it Cordite generically smells like spent gun powder.. while there are different chemical compositions of the spent gasses for each explosive, they smell fairly similar to the human olfactory sense. Since most of the people making the report of that smell were military, it would hash out that they had spent at least some time in the firing range and knew what that smelled like.

The problem with the structure failure of the WTC buildings in comparison to a controlled demolition is that the WTC still had what's called "live load" in the building... Desks, people, walls, papers, computers... things that are not purely structural and can move around and shift in the event of movement by the building. Controlled demolitions usually are a long and drawn out process that involves vacating the building and systematically weakening the structure so that the planned failure (when triggered by explosives) will create a cascading failure and make the buildingfail in the way that offers the easiest cleanup, or the safest alternative to minimise collateral damage. WTC as a controlled demolition hashes out because the WTC complex was affected mainly, and other buildings (with the notable exception of WTC 7, which was also patrolled by a Bush Family security company) were only minimally affected by debris. Also notice that the aerial on the North Tower went down plumb... it barely erred from that position. This suggests that the failure is not due to one side of the building being impacted... physics would infer that this side of weakness would have been first to fail, and thereby, force the building to tilt through its failure, but, it did not.

The other thing: Buildings are patently NOT built to fail in a pre-planned manner. That's supreme foolishness. You want to make it as impregnible to radical failure as possible so the sucker stays up forever. No architect or mechanical engineer or, more importantly, city building inspector would sign off on a building that would be prone to radical failure in the event of impact. The NYC skyscraper building code has current provisions that require a building be able to withstand a DIRECT IMPACT from an aircraft, loaded with passengers AND fuel.. and still remain standing. This piece of code has been required since 1945 when a B-25 hit the Empire State Building.

Mistakes are one thing, but utterly implausible scenarios being espoused as fact is quite another.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

So what your saying is our goverment planned all this but wasnt smart enough to silence

Quote:

200 witnesses, and most have combat or explosives experience

People who were more than likely active or retired US Military. Who could have easily been silenced?

And do you know these 200 people personally? I mean how do you know 200 witness's really said anything. because a video or a website told you so

Actually, it's from the police reports that were compiled at 911comission.gov, and AP news reports dated on 9/11/01




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.