Phil:

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How is it that we have progressed to this point with only one?

If you had read the 'story', when it comes to the end, it goes something along these lines:
"God said to Noah: I will never again wipe out the earth in a flood or other disaster, and He gave Noah the rainbow as a symbol of this promise."

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except for an errant olive branch apparently

Noah sat in the ark on the mountain for a hundred or so days. Then he sent out a dove that returned with a 'new' branch, as a sign that life was beginning to form on earth again, and that plants were starting to grow. The next time he let the bird out, it didn't return as a sign that there was enough food for the bird to live out there on it's own.

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Given the area that this story/myth/event happened

which area is this? i don't think anyone knows for sure. In the 100 somewhat days that he was in the ark, he could have floated accross the Atlantic for all we know, Paradise may have been in North America for all we know. Just because when he came out of the ark he named the country that he entered whatever his old country was known as, doesn't mean it was the same place. According to the story there was no one else left anyway to tell him that it was a different place... Just because he named the first river he saw Tigris and Euphrates doesn't make it the same river that was mention in Genesis 1.

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The time frame is also suspect

Carbon-14 dating is only accurate up to +/- 40'000 years ago, so you can't really use it for millions of years... besides, how can you prove that carbon was degenerating or whatever you call it at the same rate as it is now.
And before you start with the sedimentary layers and finding fossils in layers and everything, the age of earth's layers is based on the fossils they find in each layer. And the age of the fossil is largely based on the age of the layer?
I can't remember exactly how it worked, but I heard of research being done into (i think it was calcium dating), and they couldn't find anything that was older than 10'000 years.
Oh, and with Carbon dating and layer dating, they always assume the oldest possible calculation is the correct one.

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yeah, I saw a show on the "Real Garden of Eden" and how it all was traced back to an ancient Sumerian myth. Almost every detail of the Garden of Eden story and Gilgamesh's Flood match the Bible story.

The Biblical stories were recorded by Moses while the Israelites were on their way to Canaan from Egypt. He went up the mountain where he talked to God, and wrote down what God wanted him to write. So if Moses had 'copied' someone else's stories, he would've been much more likely to have copied Egyptian myths, especially since he grew up in the Egyptian royal court as an adopted son of a princess.
And 2, why isn't it possible that it's the other way around. The Sumerians copied the Israelites' story, or better yet, the story really happened and there's two seperate accounts of it? One Biblical, and one Sumerian both describing the same real event?

Just a bit more food for discussion.
BTW, GAM and SPITFire, it was really interesting to read your refuting of my earlier arguments. I was quite pleased that it hasn't turned into a bashing of ideas for which the .org is quite famous.

Oh, and I just remembered one more thing I wanted to write.
Someone said the Bible was 'chopped up' by a pagan Roman emperor at the Council of Nicea.
The emperor that convened the Council was more or less Christian, and was tired of all the arguing between different groups.
He convened the council, sat in at every meeting, but didn't say much, and didn't participate in any of the voting.

I just realized I have a bit more time....

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Moses actually passed through the "Reed Sea" which was a marsh and tidally influenced, not a huge water mass.

True, but how can a marsh be tidally influenced when it's not attach to a huge water mass? Small lakes don't have tides, especially not shallow ones.

When I said DNA before I really meant Genes. Sorry, I couldn't think of the right word, and used the one that popped into my mind.

That's it for now.

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Noah sat in the ark on the mountain for a hundred or so days. Then he sent out a dove that returned with a 'new' branch, as a sign that life was beginning to form on earth again, and that plants were starting to grow. The next time he let the bird out, it didn't return as a sign that there was enough food for the bird to live out there on it's own.

This "dove situation" is odd to me. Noah is sitting in the Ark waiting to see dry land. He is floating over the mountains or Ararat so obviously the water is still very deep. He sents out a raven, then a dove twice. The first two die for a lack of a place to land, I guess. But this is an indication that there was no dry land yet. BUT, the third dove somehow finds an olive branch. If this is the case, the land had JUST risen in the past seven days since he released the 2nd Dove. This is not nearly enough time for an olive tree to even sprout leaves. It seems by this passage that the dove had reached the edge of the "local flood zone" and had found forest that was on the edge of the flood. I ask believers in the global flood: "How did that olive tree grow that much in seven days from Dove #2 to Dove #3?"

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which area is this? i don't think anyone knows for sure. In the 100 somewhat days that he was in the ark, he could have floated accross the Atlantic for all we know, Paradise may have been in North America for all we know. Just because when he came out of the ark he named the country that he entered whatever his old country was known as, doesn't mean it was the same place. According to the story there was no one else left anyway to tell him that it was a different place... Just because he named the first river he saw Tigris and Euphrates doesn't make it the same river that was mention in Genesis 1.

We don't know where he floated over the 40 days and nights but most likely, since he started in the MidEast and ended up in the Mtns of Ararat, then he didn't really leave the Middle Eastern Area. This also supports a local flood event since a global flood would have likely sent him somewhere else on the planet.

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Carbon-14 dating is only accurate up to +/- 40'000 years ago, so you can't really use it for millions of years... besides, how can you prove that carbon was degenerating or whatever you call it at the same rate as it is now.
And before you start with the sedimentary layers and finding fossils in layers and everything, the age of earth's layers is based on the fossils they find in each layer. And the age of the fossil is largely based on the age of the layer?

You are right, C-14 dating is good only up to ~40,000 years. But we have alot of other dating methods that work for millions and billions of years (Potassium Argon, Uranium 248). If you date something old with C-14, there will be no C-14 left so of course they will give you funky measurements.

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And 2, why isn't it possible that it's the other way around. The Sumerians copied the Israelites' story, or better yet, the story really happened and there's two seperate accounts of it? One Biblical, and one Sumerian both describing the same real event?

The events may have been recounted from something that actually happened. But this could have easily been a local Flood. And since none of us were there to confirm the order, we cannot really prove who copied what from whom.

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BTW, GAM and SPITFire, it was really interesting to read your refuting of my earlier arguments. I was quite pleased that it hasn't turned into a bashing of ideas for which the .org is quite famous.

I'm surprised this hasn't turned into a flame war yet It's usually a pre-requisite of these debates.

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True, but how can a marsh be tidally influenced when it's not attach to a huge water mass? Small lakes don't have tides, especially not shallow ones.

Well, this was adjacent to the Med. Sea in Egypt so it had access to tidal influence. And since man could not go through the actual sea, the marsh was a "do-able" alternative. It was still difficult terrain to get his people through and if you look at any tidal marsh, it can go from completely submerged to no water in the span of an hour. The emptying of the waters by the tides may have given Moses a chance to get his people through. When the Egyptians caught up, they were caught by the incoming tide. Plus, their chariots would not have handled pluff mud very well

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We don't know where he floated over the 40 days and nights but most likely, since he started in the MidEast and ended up in the Mtns of Ararat, then he didn't really leave the Middle Eastern Area. This also supports a local flood event since a global flood would have likely sent him somewhere else on the planet.

Let me rehash the story for you.
According to Genesis 7 and 8, After 150 days God decided it was time to stop the water from the sky. The rain stopped, the waters from the deep stopped and the sun returned. Noah and the Ark were floating for 150 days. Not 40. After 150 days, the Ark came to rest on Mount Ararat.
150 days is enough for them to float a long ways. And where does it say he started in the MidEast. I know this is generally assumed, but it's never proven.

The boat landed after 150 days. 'In the 7th month, on the 17th day' that being july 17th.

Then, at the tenth month, (october) so this is like 70 days later the tops of the mountains start being visible.

then 40 days after that Noah opened the window and let out a raven. The raven flew around, but returned to him many times. Until eventually the raven didn't return anymore, because he found life on earth, enough to support himself.

Then Noah let out the dove, but the dove returned to him, because he could not find enough food to sustain himself.
The dove was let out again a week later, and returned with the leaf (not branch) of an olive shoot, not olive plant. A shoot.

then 7 more days, and he let the dove out again, and the dove didn't return, because it found enough food outside.

Then in the second month on the 27th day of the month (february the year after the beginning of the flood) Noah finally exited the ark, and returned to the earth which was now dry.

It never says there were a lot of plants or anything. And since the only animals left were the ones on the ark, there wasn't that much food needed.

Just thought i'd go over the actual account as it is found in the Bible.

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You are right, C-14 dating is good only up to ~40,000 years. But we have alot of other dating methods that work for millions and billions of years (Potassium Argon, Uranium 248). If you date something old with C-14, there will be no C-14 left so of course they will give you funky measurements.

how have we ever been able to determine the half life of KAr or U248? A person doesn't even live long enough to see such a half-life?
SO then how do you know for sure that that's the half life. At best it's going to give you a rough estimate. Not exactly scientific proof. And how do you know that these half lives are constants? What if they changed over time due to outside influences?


As for the Reed Sea incident, it says there was a hot east wind that blew the water to one side so that there was a dry area for the Israelites to cross. The wind went away as soon as all the Israelites had crossed.

OK, thanks for the actual account. That makes more sense but I still think it supports a local event.. What are the odds that Noah lands in the same geographic region as he left. And Noah and Gilgmesh were both native to the Mesopotamian region or the MidEast. The entire Bible deals with this one region of the world.

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how have we ever been able to determine the half life of KAr or U248? A person doesn't even live long enough to see such a half-life?
SO then how do you know for sure that that's the half life. At best it's going to give you a rough estimate. Not exactly scientific proof. And how do you know that these half lives are constants? What if they changed over time due to outside influences?

you should read up on dating methodology. It's common practice nowadays. We don't need to be alive to observe the half-life of Ur-238. We know the decay rate from laboratory study and we can extrapolate to determine the half-life.

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As for the Reed Sea incident, it says there was a hot east wind that blew the water to one side so that there was a dry area for the Israelites to cross. The wind went away as soon as all the Israelites had crossed.

Maybe God created the wind to assist them? If you've been on the coast, you know the wind can cause major changes in the tides. Here in Charleston if we have a strong NE wind, the tides are significantly higher. If you get the opposite (SW winds), you can lower the tides further. Further evidence that my story may be true.

How do you know though that he landed at the same region as where he left from. There is no proof of that anywhere. Just because the names are the same, doesn't mean it's the same spot... I mean, when the settlers moved from Europe to N.A., they named things the same as they were back in the motherland... Here in Ontario, we have a London, Thames river, we have Oxford, Wellington, Berlin, Hamburg, Waterloo, Kitchener, and the list goes on. Noah would have named places by the names that were familiar to him. Whether or not they are the same thing we don't know.

Just because the dating thing is common practice doesn't make it right. And yes, you're right, you can extrapolate the half life, and that will probably work to some accuracy, but what I meant is that these extrapolations are done in controlled environments in a lab. Outside influences are kept to a minimum and so therefore I still think the results aren't that accurate.
Although that still doesn't explain away the whole million years thing, I guess I dont know.

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Maybe God created the wind to assist them? If you've been on the coast, you know the wind can cause major changes in the tides. Here in Charleston if we have a strong NE wind, the tides are significantly higher. If you get the opposite (SW winds), you can lower the tides further.

that's exactly what I was trying to say. God caused the miracle to save the Israelites. Either way, it doesn't have much to do with the discussion of Noah and the flood anyway.

Willem wrote:Just because the dating thing is common practice doesn't make it right. And yes, you're right, you can extrapolate the half life, and that will probably work to some accuracy, but what I meant is that these extrapolations are done in controlled environments in a lab. Outside influences are kept to a minimum and so therefore I still think the results aren't that accurate.
Although that still doesn't explain away the whole million years thing, I guess I dont know.

You don't understand the science then.

Elements that are measured have a steady rate of decay, and that decay rate is unchanged given all factors: C-14 decays at the same rate under all conditions on earth and in space, and since it's present in all living things, it's a fairly reliable dating method. Is it flawless? No of course not, the best that can be hoped for is a window within which the thing was living, usually with C-14 its about 3-500 years, and other methods it broadens into the tens-of-thousands of years. To date things closer to our time, there are other methods assuming there is available evidence we know of.

Other than that, you're assuming that the Bible's (really the Torah) retelling is infallible, and it's descended from an oral tradition before it was committed to ink and paper. I can't take that as being valid because in the story of the flood, it says that Noah is in his 600th year of life? If you ball park it at over 5,000 years ago, most people didn't live for over 40 years: life was hard, and sickness was more or less a death sentence.

BTW, the story of Noah has parallels in Egypt but it was the Nile that had flooded.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Still, Willem, in the same context that we cannot prove it some of the specifics supporting our theories, you cxannot support some of the specifics supporting your theories. You can't say for certain that moses started in one place and ended up on another. You can't say for certain that Noah brought a pair of every single animal (or however it broke down) onto the arc.

It's all a leap of faith.

However. My take on the matter is the story of Noah was handed down word-of mouth for years before being put in written form, then translated and translated and translated. Meanwhile, The tale directly points to the last epoch of the great ice age, in which sea levels were lower, and in the study of anthropology, humans would settle in coastlines and rivers. Further, We have proof of when the last great continental glacers came through, and we have verified that not only by radioactive dating, but also on magnetic pole dating (based on the polarity of the rocks as govered by the current and past states of earth's magnetic field). We know that catastropic floods, like the Missolua flood, did indeed happen. Thus we could surmise that a completely natural event could have been the cause of the whole tale, and at the time, it was told with the given knowledge set that humanity knew.

After all, Noah's settlement would have likley been on a riverbank and likley close to a shore. If we assume that a glacial lake, say, the size of Lake Missoula, would breach the ice dam, then yes, that would not only account for the sudden flood to wipe out the village, but also likley push him out to sea.

Anyhow, back on the topic...I will not say it couldn't have possibly happened, but I will say that in all likelyness, it didn't happen as chronicled in the modern bible.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

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You don't understand the science then.

Elements that are measured have a steady rate of decay, and that decay rate is unchanged given all factors: C-14 decays at the same rate under all conditions on earth and in space, and since it's present in all living things, it's a fairly reliable dating method. Is it flawless? No of course not, the best that can be hoped for is a window within which the thing was living, usually with C-14 its about 3-500 years, and other methods it broadens into the tens-of-thousands of years. To date things closer to our time, there are other methods assuming there is available evidence we know of.

Fair enough. I didn't quite understand how it works, but this makes sense. Like I said, I'm not a geologist or zoo-ologist, or anything like that, i'm a robotic engineering student who is also a literal Christian, and since no one else is standing up, I will, (or at least try to).
anyways...

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Other than that, you're assuming that the Bible's (really the Torah) retelling is infallible, and it's descended from an oral tradition before it was committed to ink and paper. I can't take that as being valid because in the story of the flood, it says that Noah is in his 600th year of life? If you ball park it at over 5,000 years ago, most people didn't live for over 40 years: life was hard, and sickness was more or less a death sentence.

I have some questions about this:
1. How do you know that people only lived for 40 years. And how do you know sickness was a death sentence. I know you can use deduction, extrapolation or whatever you want to call it, and say people now live to 90, people 50 years ago lived to 70, people in the 1600's lived to 60 and it's an exponential type curve, therefore 5000 years ago people died at 40.
I don't consider that proof. Atmosphere could have been completely different back then.
According the Biblical retelling, the gates of heaven opened, water fell from the sky, the openings of the deep 'cliff' opened up and water came out. (Gen7:11)
Earlier on it says a mist came from the earth that watered the plants, and no rain was ever upon the earth(Gen2:6)
Also, Noah had never seen a rainbow before. This would be strange, unless there was a completely different atmosphere or environment. (Gen 9:13)
2. You say it's descended from an oral tradition. From how I remember it, Moses goes up the mountain to speak with God, and God commands him to write down what he tells him to write down, which then in turn becomes the Torah. It says in many places, 'And God spoke to Moses face to face, commanding him to write "....." '. (see also Deut 34:10, Ex 33:11, Num12:8, and Deut 5:4)

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BTW, the story of Noah has parallels in Egypt but it was the Nile that had flooded.

the Nile floods every year... Could you maybe find a version of this story. I'd be interested in reading it.

hmm... i thought i had finished, and then KOTL posts a new essay right before me, lol. Thanks though, keep it going... It's interesting to see other viewpoints. Most of my discussions are limited to believers with the same standpoints as me, so they're not real discussions, they're more like agreements.

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Still, Willem, in the same context that we cannot prove it some of the specifics supporting our theories, you cxannot support some of the specifics supporting your theories. You can't say for certain that moses started in one place and ended up on another. You can't say for certain that Noah brought a pair of every single animal (or however it broke down) onto the arc.

It's all a leap of faith.

True. I agree with that we both can't prove all of the specifics, and yes, it is a leap of faith. I'm willing to take that leap.

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However. My take on the matter is the story of Noah was handed down word-of mouth for years before being put in written form, then translated and translated and translated. Meanwhile, The tale directly points to the last epoch of the great ice age, in which sea levels were lower, and in the study of anthropology, humans would settle in coastlines and rivers. Further, We have proof of when the last great continental glacers came through, and we have verified that not only by radioactive dating, but also on magnetic pole dating (based on the polarity of the rocks as govered by the current and past states of earth's magnetic field). We know that catastropic floods, like the Missolua flood, did indeed happen. Thus we could surmise that a completely natural event could have been the cause of the whole tale, and at the time, it was told with the given knowledge set that humanity knew.

Two things I wanted to point out in there:
1. See my previous post, with text references if you happen to have a Bible nearby, I believe the Torah was handed down to Moses by God, not by Moses' parents.
2. Any reputable Bible translations will be translated directly from the 'dead sea scrolls', which was written in the language of Moses and the Israelites. They are only translated once, by groups of people seperately. In fact, in the Middle Ages, copies of sections would be send out to different monasteries, and then returned to one location. if there was even a word different between the numerous translations, it would have to be redone. The translations are NOT a light matter. They are done by highly skilled professionals.

I'll post more in a bit (I'm @ work) but, The Torah predated Moses: Leveticus (as I remember) passed on teachings that Moses was beholden to follow.

Deuteronomy (again, if I remember correctly) tells of Moses recieving the commandments (I haven't read the old testament in ages).

The 40 year thing: your body changes predictably over the space of your life.

Anyhow, more later.


Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

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1. How do you know that people only lived for 40 years. And how do you know sickness was a death sentence. I know you can use deduction, extrapolation or whatever you want to call it, and say people now live to 90, people 50 years ago lived to 70, people in the 1600's lived to 60 and it's an exponential type curve, therefore 5000 years ago people died at 40.

Well ,the easiest way to answer this is to say that all of the skeletons we find that date back that far have died between 20-50 years. The fact that we have not one body of a 100+ year old human is good proof. It is relatively easy to pin down an age on a body based on their bones. It is easy to say "God slowed down the aging process" but with no historical records of a man living longer than the low 100's, it is an assumption based on no evidence.

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I don't consider that proof. Atmosphere could have been completely different back then.
According the Biblical retelling, the gates of heaven opened, water fell from the sky, the openings of the deep 'cliff' opened up and water came out. (Gen7:11)

Explain what you think this means... because I can't imagine "gates" in the sky and water somehow coming out of a cliff (what cliff?). I interpreted that verse as meaning rain and flash floods and those alone would cause only a local flood.

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Earlier on it says a mist came from the earth that watered the plants, and no rain was ever upon the earth(Gen2:6)
Also, Noah had never seen a rainbow before. This would be strange, unless there was a completely different atmosphere or environment. (Gen 9:13)

Where is the evidence? If a planet has a dense atmosphere, it will condense and form rain at some point. Venus and Titan have different and dense atmospheres and it rains there. Again you say there was a different atmosphere. What was its composition? You can easily see rainbows in mist as long as sunlight shines through it.

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How do you know though that he landed at the same region as where he left from. There is no proof of that anywhere. Just because the names are the same, doesn't mean it's the same spot... I mean, when the settlers moved from Europe to N.A., they named things the same as they were back in the motherland... Here in Ontario, we have a London, Thames river, we have Oxford, Wellington, Berlin, Hamburg, Waterloo, Kitchener, and the list goes on. Noah would have named places by the names that were familiar to him. Whether or not they are the same thing we don't know.

You are comparing a time when the average man didn't move more than a few miles from home to the Age of Exploration. Biblical scholars all consider Noah a Middle-Eastern man. That's why they look for evidence of the Ark in that area. Where do you suppose the Ark landed? Where was Noah originally from?

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According the Biblical retelling, the gates of heaven opened, water fell from the sky, the openings of the deep 'cliff' opened up and water came out. (Gen7:11)

Try this one on for size:

A lot of glaciers are not the "snowy white" that most people associate them as. The floor of the crater of Mt. St. Helens is a glacier, but it's dirty--the same color as the rock around it--and this was the case even before the 2004-present eruption.

Now, again, let's consider this with the knowledge of the day at hand.

We're in the last epoch of the ice age--about 10,000-20,000 or so years ago in the Turkey region. If North America is anything to go by, then in Asia, continental Glaciers could have and likely would have gone that far south--especially so far from a major ocean. As such, this Glacier, which (and again, this is theory) would have been æons old at the time, would likely have a lot of dirt, silt, and mud mixed in with it--giving it a rock-like appearance (the toes of many glaciers nowadays in mountains are the same--only the top of them that received fresh snowfall are pure white). Behind it, it has a large lake dammed up. The temperatures are starting to rise, weakening the ice wall. A monsoon-like storm (which were weaker during the ice ages, but seeing as how they're coming out of an ice age, the monsoons would be getting steadily stronger, meaning that rain would last longer and longer from the perspective of the day). This is enough to weaken the ice wall of the glacier dam, which would have appeared as a cliff, broke down under the ice melting and the water pressure seeping through. then, as has been PROVEN in the Pacific NW--the formation of the scablands and the outburst of Lake Missoula...WHOOSH!!!! the water pours out, and creates a massive flood. This would have swept Noah's arc down stream with it, and perhaps out to sea.

Now, if we follow the Christian thought that Hahaha has, there is nothing about this theory that states God *couldn't* have cause it.

Thus, this explanation could have satisfied both religion and science for how it happened. He could have been swept out to sea, beyond site of land, during a strong Monsoon, causing rain for many days (the number is open to speculation, from 40-150 depending on the translation). When it cleared, a bird could have very well flew to a piece of land untouched because of elevation and produced said olive branch.

Again, nothing in this says God couldn't be the cause of it.

Personally, being antitheist, I don't believe God (assuming God exists) would have had a thing to do with it, but I can't say definitively that it's impossible, Improbable, yes.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Quote:


Two things I wanted to point out in there:
1. See my previous post, with text references if you happen to have a Bible nearby, I believe the Torah was handed down to Moses by God, not by Moses' parents.
2. Any reputable Bible translations will be translated directly from the 'dead sea scrolls', which was written in the language of Moses and the Israelites. They are only translated once, by groups of people seperately. In fact, in the Middle Ages, copies of sections would be send out to different monasteries, and then returned to one location. if there was even a word different between the numerous translations, it would have to be redone. The translations are NOT a light matter. They are done by highly skilled professionals.

Okay, 1: I pointed out it descended from oral tradition, and I seem to remember that Moses was beholden to the laws set forth by Leveticus.

2: The Dead Sea Scrolls are not part of the bible. In fact they're basically heretical writings by Gnostics. I'll give you a quick history:
- in Judea, Jews were primarily of one God, and they followed the Torrah (which is what the Old Testament is made up from).

- During Jesus' Ministry, the Jews, Egyptian Kopts and Pagan Romans were being converted to his ministry, which was based out of Judaism. None of the books of the new testament were written at this time, bare this in mind always.

- After the crucifixion and death of Jesus, there arose a bunch of sects that held differing beliefs, and they would skirmish sometimes.

- During his reign, Emperor Constantine (a Pagan, life-long) used the Symbol of one of the sects of Chrisitanity as his battle standard: It brought him great luck (along with sound military planning) and he began to attempt to consolodate the sects by asking and then forcing the leaders of the Sects of Christianity to gather and create a canonical bible... they did, and it was about 45 books long... way too long.

- In a bid to force his will on the proceedings of the Council of Nicea, Constantine ended up heavily editing the resulting bible and forcing several Christian and Pagan days/festivals to co-incide (ie, the Jewish Sabbath is on Friday sunset to Saturday sunset, but Pagan sabbath such as it was, was on sunday from sunrise to sunset), In doing this, he, Homer and others created the Latin Vulgate bible, and with it a Christian Orthodoxy. The King James Bible was translated from the Latin Vulgate.

- The dead sea scrolls, and other Gnostic Gospels were penned at the time of Christ or just after, they're also untouched from that time. The New Testament was penned from 80AD-325AD and heavily edited. The Gospel of Matthew is one heavily edited piece... and written 80 years after Christ's death, but, the Gospel of Judas, Simon's epiphany, and others were of the time: but because they were outside the orthodoxy, they are considered non-canonical, and were considered heretical for the last 1800 years or so, they disappeared around the year 800.

More later



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

I found an essay online...
sorry it's pretty long, but it helps my point a bit.

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This item is available on the Apologetics Press web site at: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/40 - it was originally published in Reason & Revelation, issue 23[11]:102-103

AP Content :: Reason & Revelation

Legends of the Flood
by Eric Lyons, M.Min. and Kyle Butt, M.A.


Anthropologists who study legends and folktales from different geographical locations and cultures consistently have reported one particular group of legends that is common to practically every civilization. Legends have surfaced in hundreds of cultures throughout the world that tell of a huge, catastrophic flood that destroyed most of mankind, and that was survived by only a few individuals and animals. Although most historians who have studied this matter estimate that these legends number into the 200s, according to evolutionary geologist Robert Schoch, “Noah is but one tale in a worldwide collection of at least 500 flood myths, which are the most widespread of all ancient myths and therefore can be considered among the oldest” (2003, p. 249, emp. added). Schoch went on to observe:


Narratives of a massive inundation are found all over the world.... Stories of a great deluge are found on every inhabited continent and among a great many different language and culture groups (pp. 103,249).
Over a century ago, the famous Canadian geologist, Sir William Dawson, wrote about how the record of the Flood


is preserved in some of the oldest historical documents of several distinct races of men, and is indirectly corroborated by the whole tenor of the early history of most of the civilized races (1895, pp. 4ff.).
Legends have been reported from nations such as China, Babylon, Mexico, Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Persia, India, Norway, Wales, Ireland, Indonesia, Romania, etc.—composing a list that could go on for many pages (see Perloff, 1999, p. 167). Although the vast number of such legends is surprising, the similarity between much of their content is equally amazing. James Perloff noted:


In 95 percent of the more than two hundred flood legends, the flood was worldwide; in 88 percent, a certain family was favored; in 70 percent, survival was by means of a boat; in 67 percent, animals were also saved; in 66 percent, the flood was due to the wickedness of man; in 66 percent, the survivors had been forewarned; in 57 percent, they ended up on a mountain; in 35 percent, birds were sent out from the boat; and in 9 percent, exactly eight people were spared (p. 168).

AMERICAN INDIAN LEGENDS
The Aztecs tell of a worldwide global flood in a story with striking parallels to the biblical deluge. “Only two people, the hero Coxcox and his wife, survived the flood by floating in a boat that came to rest on a mountain” (Schoch, p. 103). Then, soon after the flood, giants constructed a great pyramid in an endeavor to reach the clouds. Such ambition is said to have angered the gods, who scattered the giants with fire sent from the heavens (cf. Genesis 11:1-9).

In the ancient land we now refer to as Mexico, one tribe of Indians, known as the Toltecs, told of a great flood. In their legend, a deluge destroyed the “first world” 1,716 years after it was created. Only a few people escaped this worldwide flood, and did so in a “toptlipetlocali” (a word that means “closed chest”). After these few people exited the closed chest, they wandered about the Earth, and found a place where they built a “zacuali” (a high tower) in case another flood came upon the Earth. At the time of the “zacuali,” the Toltecs’ languages were confused and they separated to different parts of the Earth. (Tower sounds like story of Tower of Babel in the Bible)

Another ancient tribe of Mexico told the story of a man named Tezpi who escaped the deluge in a boat that was filled with animals. Similar to Noah, who sent out a raven (a scavenger bird) that never returned, and a dove that came back with an olive leaf, “Tezpi released a vulture, which stayed away, gorging on cadavers. Then he let a hummingbird go, and it returned to him bearing a twig” (Schoch, p. 104).


ANCIENT GREEK MYTHOLOGY
According to the Greek legend of the deluge, humans became very wicked. Zeus, the leader of the many gods in Greek mythology, wanted to destroy humans by a flood, and then raise up another group. However, before he could do this, a man by the name of Deucalion, and his wife Pyrrha, were warned of the impending disaster. This fortunate couple was placed in a large wooden chest by one of the immortals named Prometheus. For nine days and nights, the floodwaters covered almost all of the Earth. Only a few mountain peaks remained. The wooden chest came to rest on the peak of Mount Parnassus. Later, after leaving the wooden chest, Deucalion sacrificed to Zeus.


CHINESE AND ASIAN LEGENDS
In the land of China, there are many legends about a great flood. One of those comes from a group of people known as the Nosu. According to their legend, God sent a personal messenger to Earth to warn three sons that a flood was coming. Only the youngest son, Dum, heeded the messenger. He constructed a wooden boat to prepare for the coming flood. When the waters arrived, Dum entered his boat, and was saved. After the waters began to recede, the boat landed on the mountains of Tibet, where Dum had three sons who repopulated the Earth. Interestingly, even the Chinese character for “boat” possibly reveals the story of Noah and the other seven people on the ark. The three elements used to symbolize a boat are:




The Iban people of Sarawak tell of a hero named Trow, who floated around in an ark with his wife and numerous domestic animals (Schoch, p. 252). Natives from India tell a story about a man named Manu who built an ark after being warned of a flood. Later, the waters receded, and he landed on a mountain (Schoch, p. 250).


ANCIENT BABYLONIAN MYTHOLOGY
Possibly the most famous flood account (aside from the biblical record of Noah and the Flood) comes from the ancient Babylonian empire. The Gilgamesh Epic, written on twelve clay tablets that date back to the seventh century B.C., tells of a hero named Gilgamesh. In his search for eternal life, Gilgamesh sought out Utnapishtim, a person who was granted eternal life because he saved a boatload of animals and humans during a great flood. On the eleventh tablet of this epic, a flood account is recorded that parallels the Genesis account in many areas. According to the story, the gods instructed Utnapishtim to build a boat because a terrible flood was coming. Utnapishtim built the boat, covered it with pitch, and put animals of all kinds on it, as well as certain provisions. After Utnapishtim entered the boat with his family, it rained for six days and nights. When the flood ended, the boat rested on Mount Niser. After seven days, Utnapishtim sent out a dove to see if the waters had receded. The dove came back, so he sent a swallow, which also returned. Finally, he sent out a raven—which never returned. Utnapishtim and his family finally exited the boat and sacrificed to their gods (see Roth, 1988, pp. 303-304).

What is the significance of the various flood legends? The answer seems obvious: (a) we have well over 200 flood legends that tell of a great flood (and possibly more than 500—Schoch, p. 249); (b) many of the legends come from different ages and civilizations that could not possibly have copied any of the similar legends; (c) the legends were recorded long before any missionaries arrived to relate to them the Genesis account of Noah; and (d) almost all civilizations have some sort of flood legend. The conclusion to be drawn from such facts is that in the distant past, there was a colossal flood that forever affected the history of all civilizations.

Those living soon after the Flood did not have the book of Genesis to read to their descendants. (Genesis was not written until several hundred years after the Flood.) The account of the Flood was passed from one generation to the next. Many parents and grandparents told their children and grandchildren about the huge ark, the wonderful animals, and the devastating Flood, long before the Genesis record ever existed. Over the years, the details of the story were altered, but many of the actual details remained the same. Alfred Rehwinkel wrote:


Traditions similar to this record are found among nearly all the nations and tribes of the human race. And this is as one would expect it to be. If that awful world catastrophe, as described in the Bible, actually happened, the existence of the Flood traditions among the widely separated and primitive people is just what is to be expected. It is only natural that the memory of such an event was rehearsed in the ears of the children of the survivors again and again, and possibly made the basis of some religious observances (1951, pp. 127-128).
Harold W. Clark, in his volume, Fossils, Flood and Fire, commented:


Preserved in the myths and legends of almost every people on the face of the globe is the memory of the great catastrophe. While myths may not have any scientific value, yet they are significant in indicating the fact that an impression was left in the minds of the races of mankind that could not be erased (1968, p. 45).
After the “trappings” are stripped away from the kernel of truth in the various stories, there is almost complete agreement among practically all flood accounts: (a) a universal destruction by water of the human race and all other living things occurred; (b) an ark, or boat, was provided as the means of escape for some; and (c) a seed of mankind was provided to perpetuate humanity. As Furman Kearley once observed: “These traditions agree in too many vital points not to have originated from the same factual event” (1979, p. 11). In volume three of his multi-volume set, The Native Races of the Pacific Slope—Mythology, H.H. Bancroft wrote: “There never was a myth without a meaning; ...there is not one of these stories, no matter how silly or absurd, which was not founded on fact” (1883).

Among the noted scholars of days gone by who have studied these matters in detail are such men as James G. Frazer (Folklore in the Old Testament) and William Wundt (Elements of Folk Psychology). Wundt, who did his utmost to find some kind of reasonable case for independent origins of the various flood sagas (and who had no great love for the biblical evidence), was forced to admit:


Of the combination of all these elements into a whole (the destruction of the earth by water, the rescue of a single man and seed of animals by means of a boat, etc.), however, we may say without hesitation, it could not have arisen twice independently (1916, p. 392, parenthetical comment in orig.).
Or, as Dawson concluded more than a century ago:


[W]e know now that the Deluge of Noah is not mere myth or fancy of primitive man or solely a doctrine of the Hebrew Scriptures. ...[N]o historical event, ancient or modern, can be more firmly established as matter of fact than this (1895, pp. 4ff.).

REFERENCES
Bancroft, H.H. (1883), Works: The Native Races of the Pacific Slope—Mythology (San Francisco, CA: A.L. Bancroft).

Clark, Harold W. (1968), Fossils, Flood and Fire (Escondido, CA: Outdoor Pictures).

Dawson, John William (1895), The Historical Deluge in Relation to Scientific Discovery (Chicago, IL: Revell).

Kearley, F. Furman (1979), “The Significance of the Genesis Flood,” Sound Doctrine, March/April.

Perloff, James (1999), Tornado in a Junkyard: The Relentless Myth of Darwinism (Arlington, MA: Refuge Books).

Rehwinkel, Alfred M. (1951), The Flood (St. Louis, MO: Concordia).

Roth, Ariel (1988), Origins: Linking Science and Scripture (Hagerstown, MD: Review and Herald Publishing).

Schoch, Robert M. (2003), Voyages of the Pyramid Builders (New York: Jeremy P. Parcher/Putnam).

Wundt, William (1916), Elements of Folk Psychology, trans. Edward L. Schaub (New York: Macmillan).






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Quote:

In 95 percent of the more than two hundred flood legends, the flood was worldwide; in 88 percent, a certain family was favored; in 70 percent, survival was by means of a boat; in 67 percent, animals were also saved; in 66 percent, the flood was due to the wickedness of man; in 66 percent, the survivors had been forewarned; in 57 percent, they ended up on a mountain; in 35 percent, birds were sent out from the boat; and in 9 percent, exactly eight people were spared (p. 168).

This is most striking to me. If they were all based on the same event, then they'd be the same on all accounts. It seems that 95% of them believe in a "worldwide" flood, but "world" is an ambiguous word in that it could mean the "world" according to the people in question. To Noah, the Middle East was the "world", to the American Indian, the Great Plains was the "world", etc. They also use the words universal and earth as well as meaning "global", but this is not always the case. Universal can mean "widespread" and earth can simply mean "the ground".

Also, if there were all these myths from all over the world, why do the heroes have different names and the Gods have different roles. I thought it was just Noah? But it easily could have been the Indian, or Mesopotamian, or Chinese "Noah". And does this mean there were multiple boats of animals floating around? lol My point is, that we can't be sure what one of the flood myths is true and they all would have been impacted by the same local effects of the event Keeper posted about. Therefore, multiple local floods would account for the stories.