Civic Eater wrote:Holy Jesus this is a quote heavy post.

Yeah, it's a book... I get a little anal when I address things, I just abhor being misunderstood.

Quote:

I will say we didn't have enough people when we went into Iraq, thank you clinton #1.

No, the fact that you can deploy to Afghanistan and Iraq simultaneously with large operations, thank Clinton (the Military was remade to fast-deploy after the problems encountered in Somalia, and the fact that there was supposed to be a peace dividend that allowed the military to be shrunk down because you didn't need to worry about the Soviets... Realistically, if you want to talk to anyone about not having enough troops, and STILL not having enough troops to do the job, go to the Top.... Bush has allowed it to happen despite CentCom's original plan, their revised plan, the re-revised plan, the streamlined... you get the idea. Rumsfeld pushed and needled and cajolled both Tony Zinni and Tommy Franks to reduce the troop commitment, which was noted in Battle Ready, American Soldier and Cobra II.

As far as the military goes: even Dick Cheney had to acknowledge that the Military that deployed so rapidly wouldn't have been able to do it's job as quickly if it was the same as the GHW Bush Administration, it would have been hamstrung because it was not able to move quickly.

Quote:

We misjudged the impact of secretarian violence *this from Gen Peter Pace who i personally talked to out here in africa 3 or so weeks ago.
Iraq has saved us from an attack at home. No matter how it is going there it is over there. I hate everytime a Marine or soldier dies, *saint* and wish it didnt happen, but I have seen the torture chambers and heard the mortars and ied's.

It's ironic, but yes... That and Afghanistan is sucking major troop & al-qaeda commitment. As far as SAINT dying, or any other soldier, they know what they're signing on for, and in the case of SAINT, I know he was eager to do the job.

As far as misjudging sectarian violence: see my previous remark. It was well known that the Shi'a and Sunnis basically wanted to kill each other for ages... this was known in the 70s, 80s, 90s.. and for some reason things changed in 2003? *Shakes head* What? Again, it's poor planning. Look at it this way, under Clinton, Yugoslavia was occupied, stabilized (even though it did fracture) and rebuilt, and the planning for stabilization and rebuilding operations took about 4 months of solid work... in comparison, post-invasion planning in Iraq was only started 4 DAYS before the invasion and took about a week after. It's absolutely true, you need a battle plan, but my thought is that you let the people that are actually good at doing that kind of planning (ie, military planners), do that kind of planning, and let the bureaucrats do the job of figuring out what to do once the country is secured.

I hate it when a soldier, marine, seaman, or fly-boy dies, but it's a fact of war... Making it easier to kill them isn't the job of the planners though: that's what the Bush administration is doing though. Having improper troop support to secure the country basically guarentees failure. The fact that the country isn't totally bunked is a real testament to the work the military is doing.

Quote:

What we are doing overthere is amazing, only to be ruined by bad media sensationalism, and corrupt and dishonest third world politicians.

Read my bit about the media above in the book They're selling news... which is kind of weird if you think of it. And there's Dishonest first world politicians too... don't kid yourself.

Quote:

We are in this war for the next 30 years, maybe not in iraq, but we will be fighting till teh next generation of muslims grows up outside of schools based on sharia and clerical teachings.

Learning about Shariya isn't a bad thing (I don't think there's such a thing as corrupt knowledge, it's what you choose to do with it), implementing it... I don' t know... I don't know that much about Shariya in the strictest definition. If you think of it though, Catholics, Jews and Buddhists have their orthodoxies, Islam is trying to get to that point, so there's going to be MAJOR upheaval.

Quote:

We should have gotten afghanistan off poppy in 2002, and dropped teh ball, but its is their only income and we have to teach them a new way, it takes time.

The Bush Administration has nixed 5 different plans to torch, bury or spray poppy fields with chemicals to kill the plants (it's not just poppies, its potent strains of cannabis sativa and psillocyben).

Quote:

I personally think that anyone who believes this wil be fixed when g dubya leaves is uninformed. dont think clinton or obama or the great pumpkin will get us out feb of 09, it wont happen just like that. if we leave we lose and the problem is already bigger than the military can handle without the support of the people.

No, the problem won't just magically go away, but it can be approached differently while trying to make things work... Even increasing troop commitment, or asking for international and UN assistance. Once Bush is out of office I think the international community will be a lot less adverse to committing to Iraq (particularly France, Germany and Russia... they're historic allies, and most Iraqis can speak arabic and one of those 3 languages), and that might be the real key to cracking the lock that terrorism/sectarian violence has on the country presently.

At least, I hope.

Quote:

I appreciate what you all do for us out here, we get packages and mail from people we never met, and we pass that on to the local people.
the war is gettign better, we will succeed, it is just a matter of holding the course.

Hold fast, eh? Are you sure you're a Marine? J/K!!!

I understand, but I'd suspect using more forethought, and using the locals to rebuild would spur on the effort a lot more. It'd make the reconstruction effort more an Iraqi project than an American project.

Quote:


Believe in whoever you want and the monday QB'ing, but we are on the right course to getting this done the right way.
Sgt M P Demo USMC
Djibouti Africa Currenty
Ramadi Iraq 2004-2005

Cheers, laddy!


Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

well, i give up! and i think that i opened up a whole can of worms haha... but when you do watch those vids i would like to see what your view of them is so POST POST POST!

Hey why don't you guys make bigger posts those were tiny.


---

*chokes on teh Sarcasm*




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Shane: Yeah... you gotta raise your game if you wanna hang

To be honest, it's a topic of conversation that's been cropping up on and off for the last 5 years here (basically, War forum was created to get the anti/pro Iraq threads out of OT, and it became a catch-all for the rest of the divisive topics). I got interested in it after Canada refused to aid the invasion of Iraq in 02/03... I wasn't nearly educated enough about the situation, but I've read a lot of books on the subject.

I don't agree with going in in the first place, but now that it's been done, I think it's only fitting to get the job done and leave the country able to defend itself on its own 2 feet.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

GAM
First let me say thank you. One of the things a few of my friends out here and I discuss is the 18-30 crowd being wholly uneducated on matters of policy throughout the world, yet standing firm behind beliefs that have never been analyzed. You sir are in a small minority in todays society. I believe the Iraqis should be building on their own and that we should not have to baby them every step of the way, unfortunately not many people have a desire to get it done faster. I remeber the leaflets we used to drop talking of how much money each town lost that month because of the insurgents making construction unsafe. Really pissed people off but when you see someones child hanging from a lightpost because his parents supported the government, well its hard to imagine how that changes things for them.

What i meant by Sharia is not so much like catholic school etc (well maybe in the 1100's) but the individual sheiks have the loyalty of all people in their mosques, and their word goes. these are the people who tell the kids and adults america is bad, anything not islam is bad. The can of worms that is open right now has been brewing for years, basically since Ali was passed over as second imam of islam. Now we have to be involved in getting them to get along under democracy instead of an iron fist.

As far as signing up and knowing what were into, yeah we all do. I have volunteered for every deployment i have been on, past my contract requirements. Not because I care two $hits about Iraqi's or Africans et al, but because there are marines out there who need support and I am willing to do what i can. That being said If there is a way to get it done without any servicememeber getting hurt, I am all for it. Fact is it's their country they should defend it.

As far as the war itself, yeah probally not the best idea, but the UN resolutions meant that eventually something was going to happen, and fact is, Saddam needed to go. He makes Hitler and Stalin move over to share title of worlds biggest sadistic &*^&* in the last 100 years.

As far as holding the ground, this is where we say the army was supposed to relieve us, but somehow they have 4 times the people, but have to do three times longer deployments to get it done. I know we can open a huge can on these insurgents, but we are in a time where its more PR activities that win them over.

If you want some real interesting facts on where the war is going, look into AFRICOM.

Regards
Mike

Thanks, I know I piss people off because I challenge their ideas, and in most cases they don't like that because they're secure in their apathy. Sad as that sounds, it's about true. I figure if I at least get them thinking a little about where they're at instead of how they're told to feel, they might change their minds, they might not... either way at least they'll be open to becoming a little more informed .

Shariya is interesting because it seems its becoming codified into the radical religion as an edict, as opposed to a set of parables to be learned from and interpreted, at least, when it's taught in radicalized schools. Again, I don't know a lot about it, but it seems that things are being made inflexible, and things are either obligatory or forbidden. It's a sad, sad statement: but Buddhism/hindusm went through this about 3500 years ago, Christianity had it's major divergences about 1500 years ago. I hope that Islam will have the same outcome with less bloodshed. Look at it this way, there are Christian Fundamentalists that want to see the same ends as Muslim and Jewish Fundamentalists. The problem isn't the religion itself, it's the eschewing of the rest of the teachings in order to advance a narrow set of goals that are intolerant of other religions or viewpoints.

For signing up for your deployments: I hear what you're saying a lot. It seems to me that you start out because of patriotism, a job, College pay outs... whatever. You end up staying because of the people you work with. Getting the Iraqis to step up and hold their own country would be easier if they weren't so worried about their own countrymen killing their family/neighbours... sound familiar? (Think US Civil War) The UN resolutions were working, but only keep the Hussein regime from getting WMD, the UN isn't supposed to impose democracy everywhere and to stamp out despots. Really, the resolutions ended up cementing Hussein into power. No one is saying that Hussein wasn't an evil person, he was, no question. The problem is that he didn't consider the UN as an immediate problem, Iran however still had an axe to grind (which is why the whole idea of Iraq shuttling their WMD's out of the country to Iran or Syria (which is just getting back into the rest of the world's good graces) was codswallop) and would have happily invaded if they thought that there was no possibility of chem/bio/nuclear retaliation.

At this point, there's only so much you can do to win hearts and minds. You're fighting an uphill battle against pro-Saddam fighters,Shi'a, Sunnis and Kurds that want their own territory... It may be an idea to fracture the area into individual areas, but I don't know how feasible it would be and keep the oil lines open. The Army is more ideally suited to the task of holding and rebuilding because of the Corps of Engineers, and the fact that they have more mechanized forces to allow them to cover and hold more area: No doubt at all that Marines will take an area, but they're more suited to hit hard and fast, not deal with prolonged engagements (Or so I'm led to believe). Either way, help with rebuilding infrastructure, government buildings and such, and possibly even doing the same for Mosques/Churches in the area... may help PR along. It might also be an idea (after Bush is out) for the incumbent President to make inroads with the international community to help get Iraq secure and make it another ally in the mid-east.

I promise you and Shane I'll get around to looking through the vids and links, but at this point, my work schedule is rather "fluid" so, it might be a little while.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

things like this happen when an illiterate moron is the leader of one of the worlds largest superpowers. coughbushcough





12.33 @ 111.67 mph [Oct 2009]
Dyno'd on 08/02/09 - Mustang Dyno:
327.6 WHP 333.6 WTQ [10.1 AFR]

why the @!#$ did i do this i like to think its for a good reason but now it seems that we as a country are failing our soldiers, @!#$ that, why should they care how we win the war its better than losing and being the world's bitch

right?

The sad thing to say is that this is actually true. As most military say “Don’t judge us for the job we do, just support us as we do you.” Please read below…

> Limbaugh nailed this one~
>
>
> Incredible, unforgivable and shameful¦ Read Below

>
> Love him or loathe him, he nailed this one right on the head..........
>
> By Rush Limbaugh:
>
> I think the vast differences in compensation between victims of the
> September 11 casualty and those who die serving our country in Uniform are
> profound No one is really talking about it either, because you just don't
> criticize anything having to do with September 11. Well, I can't let the
> numbers pass by because it says something really disturbing about the
> entitlement mentality of this country. If you lost a family member in the
> September 11 attack, you're going to get an average of $1,185,000. The range
> is a minimum guarantee of $250,000, all the way up to $4.7 million.
> If you are a surviving family member of an American soldier killed in
> action, the first check you get is a $6,000 direct death benefit, half of
> which is taxable.
>
> Next, you get $1,750 for burial costs. If you are the surviving
> spouse, you get $833 a month until you remarry. And there's a payment of
> $211 per month for each child under 18. When the child hits 18, those
> payments come to a screeching halt.
>
> Keep in mind that some of the people who are getting an average of
> $1.185 million up to $4.7 million are complaining that it's not enough..
> Their deaths were tragic, but for most, they were simply in the wrong place
> at the wrong time. Soldiers put themselves in harms way FOR ALL OF US, and
> they and their families know the dangers. (Actually, soldiers are put in
> harms way by politicians and commanding officers.)
>
> We also learned over the weekend that some of the victims from the
> Oklahoma City bombing have started an organization asking for the same deal
> that the September 11 families are getting. In addition to that, some of the
> families of those bombed in the embassies are now asking for compensation as
> well..
>
> You see where this is going, don't you? Folks, this is part and parcel
> of over 50 years of entitlement politics in this country. It's just really
> sad. Every time a pay raise comes up for the military, they usually receive
> next to nothing of a raise. Now the green machine is in combat in the Middle
> East while their families have to survive on food stamps and live in
> low-rent housing. Make sense?
>
> However, our own US Congress voted themselves a raise. Many of you
> don't know that they only have to be in Congress one time to receive a
> pension that is more than $15,000 per month. And most are now equal to being
> millionaires plus. They do not receive Social Security on retirement because
> they didn't have to pay into the system. If some of the military people
> stay in for 20 years and get out as an E-7, they may receive a pension of
> $1,000 per month, and the very people who placed them in harm's way receives
> a pension of $15,000 per month.
>
> I would like to see our elected officials pick up a weapon and join
> ranks before they start cutting out benefits and lowering pay for our sons
> and daughters who are now  fighting.
>

Milkmancavy(bustinurarse) wrote:why the @!#$ did i do this i like to think its for a good reason but now it seems that we as a country are failing our soldiers, @!#$ that, why should they care how we win the war its better than losing and being the world's bitch

right?

WRONG.

Seriously speaking, would you like to transfer this analogy to Police? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't, because you'd have cops breaking down your door at all hours... You'd be arrested for doing 1 mph over the limit and beatings would be no big deal no matter whom it was that got it.

I think that most Service people want to do the right thing, the right way, for the right reasons at the right time.

Milkmancavy(bustinurarse) wrote:The sad thing to say is that this is actually true. As most military say “Don’t judge us for the job we do, just support us as we do you.” Please read below…

I'm sorry, but the sad thing is that Rush Limbaugh only makes a salient point once every 18 months, and that's due to contractual obligation. Okay seriously, the comparison isn't even one you can make: Your tax dollars pay for the military, they sign up knowingly, and willingly agree to put themselves in harm's way. The victims of 9/11/2001 in the WTC, Pentagon (civilians), Shanksville, PA crash site, and the airliners didn't agree to this, had no idea they were a target, and had no way to defend themselves from attack. The reason they have the right to sue is simple: the US gov't (particularly the White House) failed to act when they had credible and corroborated evidence that there was going to be a strike on civilian targets.

Anyhow... don't take Rush Limbaugh's word as gold on anything. He's been proved wrong on so many occasions (Michael J Fox in particular), and this is just another example of him getting a grain of fact and trying to sell you a wheat farm. Similarly discredited was Anne Coulter: she's in the exact same league berrating people she doesn't know because they're getting money for an incident that they had no control over and whom her beloved Gilligan dropped the ball on.

BTW, don't take your political ideals from emails...
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_rush_limbaugh.htm
http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/deathpay.asp

This one is partly from a transcription from his radio program, and the rest about congress... well that wasn't read by him. At the time, Congress AND the Senate were controlled by his best buddies: Republicans.

Quote:

Love him or loathe him, he nailed this one right on the head..........

By Rush Limbaugh:

I think the vast differences in compensation between victims of the September 11 casualty and those who die serving our country in Uniform are profound. No one is really talking about it either, because you just don't criticize anything having to do with September 11. Well, I can't let the numbers pass by because it says something really disturbing about the entitlement mentality of this country. If you lost a family member in the September 11 attack, you're going to get an average of $1,185,000. The range is a minimum guarantee of $250,000, all the way up to $4.7 million. If you are a surviving family member of an American soldier killed in action, the first check you get is a $6,000 direct death benefit, half of which is taxable.

Okay... First off, Sept 11 victims didn't ask to be in the line of fire. They didn't get paid out of US tax dollars to be targets, they expected to be helped out of the buildings by emergency personnel...

Private individuals going about their daily lives. You want to see the situation in simpler terms? Police know the names identities and whereabouts of people that are serial murderers, but do nothing to stop them, and in fact, allow the murders to happen. Do you sit back and do nothing if you're the family of a victim? Of course not, once you have evidence that there was misdoings, you go after the department.

Here's the other thing that Rush isn't going to tell you, because it'd deflate his argument on the spot: Individuals that received payments from insurance companies have to deduct that amount, plus they get taxed on their payments. If you figure the average person will earn about $1.4 million take home, and the average rate of tax on these kinds of payments runs about 50%, you're actually losing money for your loss of a loved one if you're getting $1.8 million.

Quote:

Next, you get $1,750 for burial costs. If you are the surviving spouse, you get $833 a month until you remarry. And there's a payment of $211 per month for each child under 18. When the child hits 18, those payments come to a screeching halt.

Keep in mind that some of the people who are getting an average of $1.185 million up to $4.7 million are complaining that it's not enough..

This is the end of the actual portion of the transcript in your version before someone jigged with it.

Quote:

Their deaths were tragic, but for most, they were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Soldiers put themselves in harms way FOR ALL OF US, and they and their families know the dangers. (Actually, soldiers are put in harms way by politicians and commanding officers.)

Limbaugh wouldn't say this about his benefactors. Second, it's not as if the Soldiers are not getting paid, getting benefits for themselves and their families, getting the opportunity to go to college for free or at a greatly reduced price, and are getting an accelerated apprenticeship if they go into a trade speciality.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Soldiers and their families know what they're SIGNING UP FOR... No one killed in Sept 11 (other than the hijackers) knew what was going to befall them, and they didn't sign up for it. Someone was responsible for that, and the Gov't failed to stop it when they knew it would happen.

Quote:

We also learned over the weekend that some of the victims from the Oklahoma City bombing have started an organization asking for the same deal that the September 11 families are getting. In addition to that, some of the families of those bombed in the embassies are now asking for compensation as well..

You see where this is going, don't you? Folks, this is part and parcel of over 50 years of entitlement politics in this country. It's just really sad.
This is the end of the de jure Text, the rest is codswallop that someone conjured up much like what George Carlin or Robin Williams "wrote."

I'll deal with this, but to be honest, you're likely going to get pissed off if you bought into half this junk. If so, stop, go to another page. I'm not in the mood to argue with someone that would defend a plagiarist.

Quote:

Every time a pay raise comes up for the military, they usually receive next to nothing of a raise. Now the green machine is in combat in the Middle East while their families have to survive on food stamps and live in low-rent housing. Make sense?

First off, if you're trying to survive on food stamps while employed, you're doing something wrong.
Second, if you have kids and you're an E1, you're doing something REALLY wrong.

Quote:

However, our own US Congress voted themselves a raise. Many of you don't know that they only have to be in Congress one time to receive a pension that is more than $15,000 per month. And most are now equal to being millionaires plus. They do not receive Social Security on retirement because they didn't have to pay into the system. If some of the military people stay in for 20 years and get out as an E-7, they may receive a pension of $1,000 per month, and the very people who placed them in harm's way receives a pension of $15,000 per month.

This is where it gets off topic, and for his faults (lying, fudging facts to fit his rhetoric, not holding the Republicans responsible for basically anything... etc), this isn't something that he does on one of his asinine rants. This is part of the reason that you can't read this and think for a moment that it's from his (Pharmacologically addled) brain.

Quote:

I would like to see our elected officials pick up a weapon and join ranks before they start cutting out benefits and lowering pay for our sons and daughters who are now  fighting.

This seals it. He's held the GOP harmless on everything... he wouldn't hold "elected officials" responsible, he'd hold "liberals" responsible even if the house and senate were 100% republican.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, September 27, 2007 4:17 PM

Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

well i originally posted that to stir the pot so to speak. evedentally it worked. however....there are a few points i disagree with...

1.WRONG.
Seriously speaking, would you like to transfer this analogy to Police? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't, because you'd have cops breaking down your door at all hours... You'd be arrested for doing 1 mph over the limit and beatings would be no big deal no matter whom it was that got it.

I think that most Service people want to do the right thing, the right way, for the right reasons at the right time.

Most service members do do the right thing....however thanks to bull@!#$ media coverage and stupid ass politician view s of people who arent even in afghanistan or iraq, when someone is shot (enemy) then no matter what there is an investigation into whether the soldier had the right to shoot. IE someone i knew their convoy gets hit with a suicide bomber who drove his car into a humv. 3 days later a car trys to enter the convoy he waves at them to get out of the convoy...attempting with hand bright flags all kinds of stuff. car doesnt move. my buddy fires a warning shot to the ground. car still doesnt move...so my buddy shoots the driver. For 3 weeks after that he was under investigation. (he didnt get into trouble) However the first thing that goes through a soldiers mind before pulling the trigger shouldnt be damn am i gona get into trouble for this? we have to worry more about what other people are gonna think than our own saftey. So i do agree why the hell shold you care how we when the war as long as we do. we dont just shoot anyone for anything. we have to be engaged and go through escalation of force procedures before we ever pull the trigger.

2.First off, if you're trying to survive on food stamps while employed, you're doing something wrong.
Second, if you have kids and you're an E1, you're doing something REALLY wrong.

I agree partially on the food stamp issue. but there are those that have serious problems. However the second comment is just ignorant. One of m best friends is an E2 (only 100 dollars pay differnce) and he is damn near 40 and has 3 kids. He is not an E2 because he got in trouble or anything, simply because he just joined and hasnt had enough time in service to be promoted. He joined this late because he felt he needed to serve his country, and for no other reason. I am sure there are plenty more out there though just like him.

Sincerely,
A soldier sitting in afghanistan defending your right to make the comments you do.

Milkmancavy(bustinurarse) wrote:well i originally posted that to stir the pot so to speak. evedentally it worked. however....there are a few points i disagree with...

Next time, at least search you the real source of the information. Makes the stirring a little easier. BTW, use the quote functions.. makes it a little easier to read.

Quote:

Quote:

1.WRONG.
Seriously speaking, would you like to transfer this analogy to Police? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't, because you'd have cops breaking down your door at all hours... You'd be arrested for doing 1 mph over the limit and beatings would be no big deal no matter whom it was that got it.

I think that most Service people want to do the right thing, the right way, for the right reasons at the right time.

Most service members do do the right thing....however thanks to bull@!#$ media coverage and stupid ass politician view s of people who arent even in afghanistan or iraq, when someone is shot (enemy) then no matter what there is an investigation into whether the soldier had the right to shoot. IE someone i knew their convoy gets hit with a suicide bomber who drove his car into a humv. 3 days later a car trys to enter the convoy he waves at them to get out of the convoy...attempting with hand bright flags all kinds of stuff. car doesnt move. my buddy fires a warning shot to the ground. car still doesnt move...so my buddy shoots the driver. For 3 weeks after that he was under investigation. (he didnt get into trouble) However the first thing that goes through a soldiers mind before pulling the trigger shouldnt be damn am i gona get into trouble for this? we have to worry more about what other people are gonna think than our own saftey. So i do agree why the hell shold you care how we when the war as long as we do. we dont just shoot anyone for anything. we have to be engaged and go through escalation of force procedures before we ever pull the trigger.

That's completely understood: I know the deal with escalation of force, and investigation with Officer Involved Shootings. I'm not questioning when you do your job... I want you to know that. I don't want to see people like THESE GUYS galavanting around unchecked. It makes YOUR job harder, and it only adds ire to insult on the part of the people that live there. I'll gladly question people like that... you're there to do a job, sociopaths that colour outside the lines just make it all that much easier to kill you and your buddies that are just there to do the job and get home alive and in one piece.

Quote:


2.First off, if you're trying to survive on food stamps while employed, you're doing something wrong.
Second, if you have kids and you're an E1, you're doing something REALLY wrong.

I agree partially on the food stamp issue. but there are those that have serious problems. However the second comment is just ignorant. One of m best friends is an E2 (only 100 dollars pay differnce) and he is damn near 40 and has 3 kids. He is not an E2 because he got in trouble or anything, simply because he just joined and hasnt had enough time in service to be promoted. He joined this late because he felt he needed to serve his country, and for no other reason. I am sure there are plenty more out there though just like him.

Agreed. In that context it's over the top. I was referring to a young recruit (say, under 20) that has kids and hasn't got enough life skills to know when to wrap up. On top of that, I was referring to people that were in the military for a long time, and never got promoted.

In light of what was said, I'm not arguing that point at all, we were thinking of completely different scenarios.

Quote:

Sincerely,
A soldier sitting in afghanistan defending your right to make the comments you do.

Actually, you'd have to be part of the Van-Doos (Royal 22e) Regiment to be doing that for me.

I'm Canadian, btw.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

yawn... just woke up from my hibernation....


This war is so muddled, no matter your opinion... It will bankrupt us if we are not careful.

All I have to say is that you can always tell the people that have actually been effected by this war from the people that havn't

I was in the military when this war started... I lost friends... and although I was lucky enough to have ONE friend that made it home... he could tell you stories that would make anyone have nightmares. I try to stay out of this forum for this reason but the outlook from people that have been civilians all there lifes and havn't had any family members get hurt or die in this war really need to think before they spout out randome crap.

Personally I believe that we should just pull out all together and fiqure screw the dune coon bastards... I don't want any more soldiers to die.... I'm not saying that we never should have went... but I don't believe the losses we are taking is worth anything we can gain there anymore. I just wan't it to stop.... and the day it finally does... I'll be crying soo hard that I won't be able to go to work. I still have nightmares about being in the military... there are only a handfull of people (like my dad) that can understand the guilt that I feel.

Am I anti war? Not nesisarely...but I do think we shouldn't be there anymore.

This is just something that came to me:

We have people saying crap like, "Anti-war Jagoffs piss me off" or even Bush is wanting to be remembers as a "war" president...

Think about what war means for a second. it means that a select few send many against each other to kill each other, usually to propogate a belief in something, or to extend influence and consolidate power.

About now, my brain kicks in and says this:

YOU MEAN THERE ARE ACTUALY CRETINS THAT THINK BEING AGAINST WAR IS A GOOD IDEA?!?!?!?!

My advice, if you're so pro war, then you fight it. I'll keep by my personal philosophy of leaving people the hell alone unless they come for me.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Weebel: Nightmares are a common cross to bare between men and women of service. It sucks what people do to each other when they set their minds to it.

I don't think that pulling up stakes and beating a hasty retreat home is the solution, at this point arguing whether or not invasion was the right idea is moot: we know it wasn't justified or right in any sense of the word, and that this is a personal vendetta gone awry.

At this point, cutting and running would do two things that would damage the US:
1: it would let down the Iraqis that are just living their lives, and drive a stake in the heart of everything that the fallen worked for.
2: it would not only embolden terrorists, but it would leave Iraq ripe for the picking for Iran, and any terrorism organizations that need a new recruiting grounds.

I'm not going to say that it isn't horrible, but I can't in any good conscience say it's alright to leave those people to just live under tyranny.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Gam.... I agree with everything you said about pulling out early... but I still can't help but to look at it like this...

If you had to choose between saving your family... or helping others that you dont know..... which would you choose...

I know it wouldn't be the best for the people that live there... but it would be the best for the troops that we have over there right now... and to me... thats all that matters.

As far as being pro or anti war.... thats up to the individual person... but just make sure you do your research and have a valid backed up reason for how you feel.

And possably even more inportantly.... make sure your reasons apply to the war at hand, people that are just anti or pro war in general or idiots.

If we ever had a war on U.S land... even though I'm a civilian now... I would grab my guns... and keep fighting until either the war was over or I was dead..... but if 2 countries wan't to kill eachother off... I really don't care if it doesn't effect us in our country. (this comment is meant as a generalization... and not aimed to reflect the current war at hand)

Anyone that knows my military history would be giving me crap right now (i'm not really going to say why)... but lets just say I got lucky... and it bothers me every day. That siad... I still feel strongly about this.

Weeble: Who wouldn't? If we had a war on the American homeland I'd think anyone that DIDN'T take up arms and try to defend themselves would be the epitome of what's wrong with America today...

But i don't believe we should have been there in the first place...but GAM's right, we have to try to stabilize the region. It's not helping the soldiers, though, that the politicians ALWAYS muck this @!#$ up.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

^^^ To be honest... I'm willing to bet almost half our adult population would run and hide, and just hope our military takes care of it for us.

I might not neccisarely run right over to the front emediatley (our military wouldn't want that anyway), but you can bet I'de be holding town my town blowing away anyone in a foreing uniform.

There really is a lot of crap going on over there that I don't even know about anymore, and there would be a lot of problems with us pulling out now... but being ex- military.. all I can think of is our people over there.

Yes I think we used 911 as an excuse to do what we are doing in the middle east... but like most people I don't know the full story.. so I can't really make a compitent opinion.

What really pisses me off is how our troops are being put on trial for things they are doing over there (accidently shooting civilians and what not). If the military thinks they are in the wrong.. thats what a courtmartial is for.. are local courts need to stay out of this crap. I'de like to see what most of these people giving them crap would do if they where under heavy fire and everyone was dieing around them. You would start shooting anyone carrying a gun that wasn't in an american uniform.. and thats normal.

Some people forget that this is WAR we are talking about... normal rules don't apply here.

Something intresting i picked up from the Rollins show this past Wednesday...

Apparently, he was talking to an Iraqi on one of his many travels, and apparently, according to this Iraqi--if the source is to be believed, the *worst* thing we did was stay in there...according to that source, it would have been better for the Iraqis to settle the matter for themselves.

Personally, all I have to say on the matter of Anti-war "jagoffs" is this: I'd rather real with them than the Anti-peace choadmonsters.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Just thought I'de throw this in their.... I have yet to meet one person that is highley against this war that was actually in the military at the time.... hell when I was in... "dune coon" was commonly heard.. This is probably because when your in the military... your job is to follow orders and not give a crap about thier validity though...

If your orderd to shoot someone... you pull the trigger and ask "ok.. now what". withought even thinking about it....

Most people won't believe me... but when I was in the military... I honestly wasn't afraid to die...... now that I'm a civilian again..... I still feel that way to a point and that screws with me..... I wonder if I'll ever be the way I was again.....

Anyone else have this problem?.... My friends tell me I should talk to a shrink.... I don't have the money.... and don't believe in them.... but I probably should.

As far as being afraid or not beiong afraid...... I'm kinda 40 60 right now (not being afraid being the 60% portion)....

Weebel wrote:Just thought I'de throw this in their.... I have yet to meet one person that is highley against this war that was actually in the military at the time.... hell when I was in... "dune coon" was commonly heard.. This is probably because when your in the military... your job is to follow orders and not give a crap about thier validity though...

If your orderd to shoot someone... you pull the trigger and ask "ok.. now what". withought even thinking about it....

Most people won't believe me... but when I was in the military... I honestly wasn't afraid to die...... now that I'm a civilian again..... I still feel that way to a point and that screws with me..... I wonder if I'll ever be the way I was again.....

Anyone else have this problem?.... My friends tell me I should talk to a shrink.... I don't have the money.... and don't believe in them.... but I probably should.

As far as being afraid or not beiong afraid...... I'm kinda 40 60 right now (not being afraid being the 60% portion)....

no one goes to war and comes back the same. dont feel like you're alone on that one. My best friend did 3 tours in Iraq, and he fulfilled his committment of the 4 years about a year ago. He went thru 2 different road-side bombings, in which he was injured in both. They sent him a recall 3 weeks ago since he is on his inactive duty term now. He was flown immediately to KC for testing to see if he was fit to go back....but thankfully he is not being forced to go back due to his disabilites from the bombs.

He still wants to go back, but back to the story.........him along with another friend of mine both came back from iraq, and neither are near the same. they obviously fit back into normal society, but mentally they will never be the same. unfortunately thats part of the harm of war. Even my uncle still has mental breakdowns from his fighting days in Vietnam.

I hope you start to feel better about the whole situation, but i doubt you'll ever get back to the same mental state you were in before you left. just take it one day at a time and try not to think about how you felt there as opposed to home, etc.

and dont feel embarrased or reluctant to see a shrink. They may help, they may not. But I wish you the best man, truly!

and thanks for your service!

^^^^^

Thats what I was trying to say before I got of subject about the metal thing.....

Like Joey says.... his friend wants to go back even after what happend.... It's strange..... damn near everyone that has actually served or is serving in thiis conflict doesn't have anything negative to say.... and they sure as hell are not anti war.....

You would think it would be the other way around.....

Most of these anti war hippies havn't even held a gun in their life..... thats why those people piss me off.

Thier highly against something that they know nothing about.....


And Joey.... thanx man.... but I'm fine.... I never wen't through what most of these people in question did... my problems stem from slightly different things when I was in the service but it's to complicated to go into now.... I just don't want any praise that I don't deserve.... thanx though.

I've had squadron mates and friends that went over their and never came home... and that perrils in comparison to anything that happened to me.

It's strange how you mind can click into "duty mode" (at least thats what I call it), during times of extreme stress and never completely come back though... I'm still trying to fiqure that one out.

Here are my statements;

1. I would go back in an instant with my old unit(s) if they were intact.
2. I would not want to go back with a group that I am not comfortable with their competency.
3. I know first hand that "we" did a lot of good over there.
4. I saw some really horrible things.

Q&A

1. Do I think we did more good than bad?
no, but the best I can hope for is 50-50

2. Should we have gone back a second time? (even though it is still considered a delayed deployment of the first time)
No.

3 Why?
I could care less aboot risking my life or anyone else's to fight for someone to get anything that they do not want bad enough to fight for themselves. IIRC the controlling population was only aboot 20% of the total population. Anyone that ever ventured outside the gates can tell you that a high percentage of the Iraqi population was armed, AK-47s are like @!#$ I-pods over there.

I am notsaying that some did not try, but there were more than enough "oppressed" individuals to form at least a valid attempt at a revolution. Nobody thought we would be able to beat the British either. Hell the only reason we received any help was to spite the Brits, and it was not there at the start either.

GAM will correct anything I have typed in error (oh and he will, at great length )

The Shi'ite population attempted to rise up against Hussein in 1991 after the first Gulf war.. They had been told that they would receive material and intelligence support from the US, but ultimately, that didn't materialize. GHW Bush didn't push to get the Saudi Military, the UN nor NATO to invade and occupy, and decided to pocket a win with regards to ousting Iraqis out of Kuwait and call it a day. (Military leaders at the time wanted to just invade, and the CIA wanted to go into Iraq and support the Shi'ites)

Saddam had swept into them and brutally crushed the resistance, Stalin would have been proud. The fact that people that were likely to have been "disappeared" and tortured or have an accident or "suicide." Realistically, I'm assuming there would be a huge deterrence factor there. And the AK-47s... might be from the military. Bremmer forgot that by barring all Ba'ath party members from taking an office in Iraq, he was basically stopping about 90% of the military, and he also forgot that it's probably a really REALLY good idea to disarm the military BEFORE you stop them from keeping a job and wiping out their pensions. AK-47s are more common that clean potable water in some areas.

For the Brits/Americans, there was a revolt against non-representative taxation and rule. The Brits didn't make a habit (as far as I'm aware of in the US that is) of kidnapping and torturing people, nor invading another sovereign nation and prolonging a conflict that was stale-mated, nor were they accustomed to using chemical weapons on dissident population (however, Small-pox infested blankets were used by the Spanish and American military to wipe out opposing natives).

As far as the good vs. bad: I'm of mixed feelings. There was no question that Hussein was a malevolent dictator that was oppressing (at lightest) people in the same manner as Stalin and Lenin, and he needed to be deposed as well as the rest of the Ba'ath higher-ups. However, the fact that there was more pressing problems in Afghanistan, and that the operation in Iraq would have required a MUCH larger force to invade, occupy, secure and rebuild... this isn't something you can look past. As well there's more problems that have been created since invasion, and now it's becoming more of a proxy battlefield... and that isn't a good thing because of it's proximity to Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait, and the fact that it will likely arouse sympathy from radical leaning Muslims in both countries (Not to mention Iran, Jordan, and other close countries).

As far as clicking into "duty mode," it's called temporary operative dissociation if my memory serves me. You dissociate your normal feelings in order to complete a task. Doctors, police and military are the ones that usually have to develop that as a coping mechanism for what they have to deal with day in and out.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.