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How is it that we have progressed to this point with only one?
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except for an errant olive branch apparently
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Given the area that this story/myth/event happened
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The time frame is also suspect
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yeah, I saw a show on the "Real Garden of Eden" and how it all was traced back to an ancient Sumerian myth. Almost every detail of the Garden of Eden story and Gilgamesh's Flood match the Bible story.
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Moses actually passed through the "Reed Sea" which was a marsh and tidally influenced, not a huge water mass.
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Noah sat in the ark on the mountain for a hundred or so days. Then he sent out a dove that returned with a 'new' branch, as a sign that life was beginning to form on earth again, and that plants were starting to grow. The next time he let the bird out, it didn't return as a sign that there was enough food for the bird to live out there on it's own.
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which area is this? i don't think anyone knows for sure. In the 100 somewhat days that he was in the ark, he could have floated accross the Atlantic for all we know, Paradise may have been in North America for all we know. Just because when he came out of the ark he named the country that he entered whatever his old country was known as, doesn't mean it was the same place. According to the story there was no one else left anyway to tell him that it was a different place... Just because he named the first river he saw Tigris and Euphrates doesn't make it the same river that was mention in Genesis 1.
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Carbon-14 dating is only accurate up to +/- 40'000 years ago, so you can't really use it for millions of years... besides, how can you prove that carbon was degenerating or whatever you call it at the same rate as it is now.
And before you start with the sedimentary layers and finding fossils in layers and everything, the age of earth's layers is based on the fossils they find in each layer. And the age of the fossil is largely based on the age of the layer?
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And 2, why isn't it possible that it's the other way around. The Sumerians copied the Israelites' story, or better yet, the story really happened and there's two seperate accounts of it? One Biblical, and one Sumerian both describing the same real event?
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BTW, GAM and SPITFire, it was really interesting to read your refuting of my earlier arguments. I was quite pleased that it hasn't turned into a bashing of ideas for which the .org is quite famous.
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True, but how can a marsh be tidally influenced when it's not attach to a huge water mass? Small lakes don't have tides, especially not shallow ones.
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We don't know where he floated over the 40 days and nights but most likely, since he started in the MidEast and ended up in the Mtns of Ararat, then he didn't really leave the Middle Eastern Area. This also supports a local flood event since a global flood would have likely sent him somewhere else on the planet.
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You are right, C-14 dating is good only up to ~40,000 years. But we have alot of other dating methods that work for millions and billions of years (Potassium Argon, Uranium 248). If you date something old with C-14, there will be no C-14 left so of course they will give you funky measurements.
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how have we ever been able to determine the half life of KAr or U248? A person doesn't even live long enough to see such a half-life?
SO then how do you know for sure that that's the half life. At best it's going to give you a rough estimate. Not exactly scientific proof. And how do you know that these half lives are constants? What if they changed over time due to outside influences?
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As for the Reed Sea incident, it says there was a hot east wind that blew the water to one side so that there was a dry area for the Israelites to cross. The wind went away as soon as all the Israelites had crossed.
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Maybe God created the wind to assist them? If you've been on the coast, you know the wind can cause major changes in the tides. Here in Charleston if we have a strong NE wind, the tides are significantly higher. If you get the opposite (SW winds), you can lower the tides further.
Willem wrote:Just because the dating thing is common practice doesn't make it right. And yes, you're right, you can extrapolate the half life, and that will probably work to some accuracy, but what I meant is that these extrapolations are done in controlled environments in a lab. Outside influences are kept to a minimum and so therefore I still think the results aren't that accurate.
Although that still doesn't explain away the whole million years thing, I guess I dont know.
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You don't understand the science then.
Elements that are measured have a steady rate of decay, and that decay rate is unchanged given all factors: C-14 decays at the same rate under all conditions on earth and in space, and since it's present in all living things, it's a fairly reliable dating method. Is it flawless? No of course not, the best that can be hoped for is a window within which the thing was living, usually with C-14 its about 3-500 years, and other methods it broadens into the tens-of-thousands of years. To date things closer to our time, there are other methods assuming there is available evidence we know of.
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Other than that, you're assuming that the Bible's (really the Torah) retelling is infallible, and it's descended from an oral tradition before it was committed to ink and paper. I can't take that as being valid because in the story of the flood, it says that Noah is in his 600th year of life? If you ball park it at over 5,000 years ago, most people didn't live for over 40 years: life was hard, and sickness was more or less a death sentence.
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BTW, the story of Noah has parallels in Egypt but it was the Nile that had flooded.
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Still, Willem, in the same context that we cannot prove it some of the specifics supporting our theories, you cxannot support some of the specifics supporting your theories. You can't say for certain that moses started in one place and ended up on another. You can't say for certain that Noah brought a pair of every single animal (or however it broke down) onto the arc.
It's all a leap of faith.
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However. My take on the matter is the story of Noah was handed down word-of mouth for years before being put in written form, then translated and translated and translated. Meanwhile, The tale directly points to the last epoch of the great ice age, in which sea levels were lower, and in the study of anthropology, humans would settle in coastlines and rivers. Further, We have proof of when the last great continental glacers came through, and we have verified that not only by radioactive dating, but also on magnetic pole dating (based on the polarity of the rocks as govered by the current and past states of earth's magnetic field). We know that catastropic floods, like the Missolua flood, did indeed happen. Thus we could surmise that a completely natural event could have been the cause of the whole tale, and at the time, it was told with the given knowledge set that humanity knew.
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1. How do you know that people only lived for 40 years. And how do you know sickness was a death sentence. I know you can use deduction, extrapolation or whatever you want to call it, and say people now live to 90, people 50 years ago lived to 70, people in the 1600's lived to 60 and it's an exponential type curve, therefore 5000 years ago people died at 40.
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I don't consider that proof. Atmosphere could have been completely different back then.
According the Biblical retelling, the gates of heaven opened, water fell from the sky, the openings of the deep 'cliff' opened up and water came out. (Gen7:11)
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Earlier on it says a mist came from the earth that watered the plants, and no rain was ever upon the earth(Gen2:6)
Also, Noah had never seen a rainbow before. This would be strange, unless there was a completely different atmosphere or environment. (Gen 9:13)
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How do you know though that he landed at the same region as where he left from. There is no proof of that anywhere. Just because the names are the same, doesn't mean it's the same spot... I mean, when the settlers moved from Europe to N.A., they named things the same as they were back in the motherland... Here in Ontario, we have a London, Thames river, we have Oxford, Wellington, Berlin, Hamburg, Waterloo, Kitchener, and the list goes on. Noah would have named places by the names that were familiar to him. Whether or not they are the same thing we don't know.
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According the Biblical retelling, the gates of heaven opened, water fell from the sky, the openings of the deep 'cliff' opened up and water came out. (Gen7:11)
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Two things I wanted to point out in there:
1. See my previous post, with text references if you happen to have a Bible nearby, I believe the Torah was handed down to Moses by God, not by Moses' parents.
2. Any reputable Bible translations will be translated directly from the 'dead sea scrolls', which was written in the language of Moses and the Israelites. They are only translated once, by groups of people seperately. In fact, in the Middle Ages, copies of sections would be send out to different monasteries, and then returned to one location. if there was even a word different between the numerous translations, it would have to be redone. The translations are NOT a light matter. They are done by highly skilled professionals.
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This item is available on the Apologetics Press web site at: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/40 - it was originally published in Reason & Revelation, issue 23[11]:102-103
AP Content :: Reason & Revelation
Legends of the Flood
by Eric Lyons, M.Min. and Kyle Butt, M.A.
Anthropologists who study legends and folktales from different geographical locations and cultures consistently have reported one particular group of legends that is common to practically every civilization. Legends have surfaced in hundreds of cultures throughout the world that tell of a huge, catastrophic flood that destroyed most of mankind, and that was survived by only a few individuals and animals. Although most historians who have studied this matter estimate that these legends number into the 200s, according to evolutionary geologist Robert Schoch, “Noah is but one tale in a worldwide collection of at least 500 flood myths, which are the most widespread of all ancient myths and therefore can be considered among the oldest” (2003, p. 249, emp. added). Schoch went on to observe:
Narratives of a massive inundation are found all over the world.... Stories of a great deluge are found on every inhabited continent and among a great many different language and culture groups (pp. 103,249).
Over a century ago, the famous Canadian geologist, Sir William Dawson, wrote about how the record of the Flood
is preserved in some of the oldest historical documents of several distinct races of men, and is indirectly corroborated by the whole tenor of the early history of most of the civilized races (1895, pp. 4ff.).
Legends have been reported from nations such as China, Babylon, Mexico, Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Persia, India, Norway, Wales, Ireland, Indonesia, Romania, etc.—composing a list that could go on for many pages (see Perloff, 1999, p. 167). Although the vast number of such legends is surprising, the similarity between much of their content is equally amazing. James Perloff noted:
In 95 percent of the more than two hundred flood legends, the flood was worldwide; in 88 percent, a certain family was favored; in 70 percent, survival was by means of a boat; in 67 percent, animals were also saved; in 66 percent, the flood was due to the wickedness of man; in 66 percent, the survivors had been forewarned; in 57 percent, they ended up on a mountain; in 35 percent, birds were sent out from the boat; and in 9 percent, exactly eight people were spared (p. 168).
AMERICAN INDIAN LEGENDS
The Aztecs tell of a worldwide global flood in a story with striking parallels to the biblical deluge. “Only two people, the hero Coxcox and his wife, survived the flood by floating in a boat that came to rest on a mountain” (Schoch, p. 103). Then, soon after the flood, giants constructed a great pyramid in an endeavor to reach the clouds. Such ambition is said to have angered the gods, who scattered the giants with fire sent from the heavens (cf. Genesis 11:1-9).
In the ancient land we now refer to as Mexico, one tribe of Indians, known as the Toltecs, told of a great flood. In their legend, a deluge destroyed the “first world” 1,716 years after it was created. Only a few people escaped this worldwide flood, and did so in a “toptlipetlocali” (a word that means “closed chest”). After these few people exited the closed chest, they wandered about the Earth, and found a place where they built a “zacuali” (a high tower) in case another flood came upon the Earth. At the time of the “zacuali,” the Toltecs’ languages were confused and they separated to different parts of the Earth. (Tower sounds like story of Tower of Babel in the Bible)
Another ancient tribe of Mexico told the story of a man named Tezpi who escaped the deluge in a boat that was filled with animals. Similar to Noah, who sent out a raven (a scavenger bird) that never returned, and a dove that came back with an olive leaf, “Tezpi released a vulture, which stayed away, gorging on cadavers. Then he let a hummingbird go, and it returned to him bearing a twig” (Schoch, p. 104).
ANCIENT GREEK MYTHOLOGY
According to the Greek legend of the deluge, humans became very wicked. Zeus, the leader of the many gods in Greek mythology, wanted to destroy humans by a flood, and then raise up another group. However, before he could do this, a man by the name of Deucalion, and his wife Pyrrha, were warned of the impending disaster. This fortunate couple was placed in a large wooden chest by one of the immortals named Prometheus. For nine days and nights, the floodwaters covered almost all of the Earth. Only a few mountain peaks remained. The wooden chest came to rest on the peak of Mount Parnassus. Later, after leaving the wooden chest, Deucalion sacrificed to Zeus.
CHINESE AND ASIAN LEGENDS
In the land of China, there are many legends about a great flood. One of those comes from a group of people known as the Nosu. According to their legend, God sent a personal messenger to Earth to warn three sons that a flood was coming. Only the youngest son, Dum, heeded the messenger. He constructed a wooden boat to prepare for the coming flood. When the waters arrived, Dum entered his boat, and was saved. After the waters began to recede, the boat landed on the mountains of Tibet, where Dum had three sons who repopulated the Earth. Interestingly, even the Chinese character for “boat” possibly reveals the story of Noah and the other seven people on the ark. The three elements used to symbolize a boat are:
The Iban people of Sarawak tell of a hero named Trow, who floated around in an ark with his wife and numerous domestic animals (Schoch, p. 252). Natives from India tell a story about a man named Manu who built an ark after being warned of a flood. Later, the waters receded, and he landed on a mountain (Schoch, p. 250).
ANCIENT BABYLONIAN MYTHOLOGY
Possibly the most famous flood account (aside from the biblical record of Noah and the Flood) comes from the ancient Babylonian empire. The Gilgamesh Epic, written on twelve clay tablets that date back to the seventh century B.C., tells of a hero named Gilgamesh. In his search for eternal life, Gilgamesh sought out Utnapishtim, a person who was granted eternal life because he saved a boatload of animals and humans during a great flood. On the eleventh tablet of this epic, a flood account is recorded that parallels the Genesis account in many areas. According to the story, the gods instructed Utnapishtim to build a boat because a terrible flood was coming. Utnapishtim built the boat, covered it with pitch, and put animals of all kinds on it, as well as certain provisions. After Utnapishtim entered the boat with his family, it rained for six days and nights. When the flood ended, the boat rested on Mount Niser. After seven days, Utnapishtim sent out a dove to see if the waters had receded. The dove came back, so he sent a swallow, which also returned. Finally, he sent out a raven—which never returned. Utnapishtim and his family finally exited the boat and sacrificed to their gods (see Roth, 1988, pp. 303-304).
What is the significance of the various flood legends? The answer seems obvious: (a) we have well over 200 flood legends that tell of a great flood (and possibly more than 500—Schoch, p. 249); (b) many of the legends come from different ages and civilizations that could not possibly have copied any of the similar legends; (c) the legends were recorded long before any missionaries arrived to relate to them the Genesis account of Noah; and (d) almost all civilizations have some sort of flood legend. The conclusion to be drawn from such facts is that in the distant past, there was a colossal flood that forever affected the history of all civilizations.
Those living soon after the Flood did not have the book of Genesis to read to their descendants. (Genesis was not written until several hundred years after the Flood.) The account of the Flood was passed from one generation to the next. Many parents and grandparents told their children and grandchildren about the huge ark, the wonderful animals, and the devastating Flood, long before the Genesis record ever existed. Over the years, the details of the story were altered, but many of the actual details remained the same. Alfred Rehwinkel wrote:
Traditions similar to this record are found among nearly all the nations and tribes of the human race. And this is as one would expect it to be. If that awful world catastrophe, as described in the Bible, actually happened, the existence of the Flood traditions among the widely separated and primitive people is just what is to be expected. It is only natural that the memory of such an event was rehearsed in the ears of the children of the survivors again and again, and possibly made the basis of some religious observances (1951, pp. 127-128).
Harold W. Clark, in his volume, Fossils, Flood and Fire, commented:
Preserved in the myths and legends of almost every people on the face of the globe is the memory of the great catastrophe. While myths may not have any scientific value, yet they are significant in indicating the fact that an impression was left in the minds of the races of mankind that could not be erased (1968, p. 45).
After the “trappings” are stripped away from the kernel of truth in the various stories, there is almost complete agreement among practically all flood accounts: (a) a universal destruction by water of the human race and all other living things occurred; (b) an ark, or boat, was provided as the means of escape for some; and (c) a seed of mankind was provided to perpetuate humanity. As Furman Kearley once observed: “These traditions agree in too many vital points not to have originated from the same factual event” (1979, p. 11). In volume three of his multi-volume set, The Native Races of the Pacific Slope—Mythology, H.H. Bancroft wrote: “There never was a myth without a meaning; ...there is not one of these stories, no matter how silly or absurd, which was not founded on fact” (1883).
Among the noted scholars of days gone by who have studied these matters in detail are such men as James G. Frazer (Folklore in the Old Testament) and William Wundt (Elements of Folk Psychology). Wundt, who did his utmost to find some kind of reasonable case for independent origins of the various flood sagas (and who had no great love for the biblical evidence), was forced to admit:
Of the combination of all these elements into a whole (the destruction of the earth by water, the rescue of a single man and seed of animals by means of a boat, etc.), however, we may say without hesitation, it could not have arisen twice independently (1916, p. 392, parenthetical comment in orig.).
Or, as Dawson concluded more than a century ago:
[W]e know now that the Deluge of Noah is not mere myth or fancy of primitive man or solely a doctrine of the Hebrew Scriptures. ...[N]o historical event, ancient or modern, can be more firmly established as matter of fact than this (1895, pp. 4ff.).
REFERENCES
Bancroft, H.H. (1883), Works: The Native Races of the Pacific Slope—Mythology (San Francisco, CA: A.L. Bancroft).
Clark, Harold W. (1968), Fossils, Flood and Fire (Escondido, CA: Outdoor Pictures).
Dawson, John William (1895), The Historical Deluge in Relation to Scientific Discovery (Chicago, IL: Revell).
Kearley, F. Furman (1979), “The Significance of the Genesis Flood,” Sound Doctrine, March/April.
Perloff, James (1999), Tornado in a Junkyard: The Relentless Myth of Darwinism (Arlington, MA: Refuge Books).
Rehwinkel, Alfred M. (1951), The Flood (St. Louis, MO: Concordia).
Roth, Ariel (1988), Origins: Linking Science and Scripture (Hagerstown, MD: Review and Herald Publishing).
Schoch, Robert M. (2003), Voyages of the Pyramid Builders (New York: Jeremy P. Parcher/Putnam).
Wundt, William (1916), Elements of Folk Psychology, trans. Edward L. Schaub (New York: Macmillan).
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In 95 percent of the more than two hundred flood legends, the flood was worldwide; in 88 percent, a certain family was favored; in 70 percent, survival was by means of a boat; in 67 percent, animals were also saved; in 66 percent, the flood was due to the wickedness of man; in 66 percent, the survivors had been forewarned; in 57 percent, they ended up on a mountain; in 35 percent, birds were sent out from the boat; and in 9 percent, exactly eight people were spared (p. 168).