Emor8t wrote:Why vote based on a party?Sadly, you only get one vote per election, and the likelihood that the elected candidate will follow voters' wishes versus party consensus is about 50/50
Vote the issues, not the party.
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:Base your vote by Parties' actions, history, and possible future plan, not "what god told me." So much happens because people don't know/learn history, so history repeats itself. Staying informed and learning your past makes a better voter if you will.
People should vote on issues at hand, not what your pastor, father or rabbi told you over the weekend. Could people really be that lazy or ignorant or worse...both?
Remove religion and you don't have to worry about conforming to all and makes a better representative.
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By voting on faith based, you're subjecting to just that... (ONE) faith. You are not representing the country as whole, because your faith dictates what is right or wrong to what others considers wrong or right and extreme. You can't be doing that on a nation made by immigrants from all around the world with different religions, cultures, races, beliefs.
(tabs) wrote:have you been conditioned to believe that "republican" = rich people? or that "democrat" = poor people? do yourself a favor and read up on this stuff a little before you post dumb @!#$ like that. seriously.
Khanduras wrote:(tabs) wrote:have you been conditioned to believe that "republican" = rich people? or that "democrat" = poor people? do yourself a favor and read up on this stuff a little before you post dumb @!#$ like that. seriously.
Dude, you have no idea how many times I hear that sh*t! Every time I get into a debate, and I mention I'm a republican.. they (co-workers or random people) immediately start asking how much I make (which they can go f*ck off for asking), and why I'm a republican if I don't make 'x' amount of money. It's such a joke, right around that time I give up.. because they're clearly more ignorant than I previously had thought. I'm not even kidding, I literally hear it every time I get into a debate. It really is sad.
Sappy96 wrote:^^^
Yes, religious persecution. Not a society that was religion based no matter what religion it was.
Whats this BS about conformity? Does that have anything to do w/ anything?
O and I already stated my reasons for voting "republican" for Pres. I don't party vote because 95% of the time that is just dumb.
ScottaWhite wrote:By voting on faith based, you're subjecting to just that... (ONE) faith. You are not representing the country as whole, because your faith dictates what is right or wrong to what others considers wrong or right and extreme. You can't be doing that on a nation made by immigrants from all around the world with different religions, cultures, races, beliefs.
People should vote on issues at hand, not what your pastor, father or rabbi told you over the weekend. Could people really be that lazy or ignorant or worse...both?
Remove religion and you don't have to worry about conforming to all and makes a better representative. -Tweety Bird.
Am I reading this correctly? I shouldn't base my vote according to my religious beliefs because it doesn't represent the country as a whole? What does the country as a whole believe in, because obviously I'm the only one not voting the same as the rest of you. I really can't express how dumb your statement was/ is.
If someone wants to vote Libertarian, because they are for the legalization of drugs and prostitution, (as some prominent Liberterians are such as Larry Elder) then by all means, they have the right to do so. Even thought the vast majority of non-JBO America is against those two issues, it would not be wrong for the Libertarian voter to vote based on his beliefs.
You simply have a problem with people who don't think/ act/ do just like you. Many of the so-called progressive thinkers and self-proclaimed liberals on this site bemoan the cruel and intolerant religious right. The folks that beg for tolerance and open-mindness are the ones who are entirely intolerant and close-minded to anyone else who doesn't share their same beliefs....as evidenced by the rampant anti-religious diatribes on nearly every post.
So one doesn't believe in God or whatever.....great....you just exercised your free right to do so, and you have the right to talk about why you don't...even try to convert others to your "religon". But why the rabid vehemence towards those who hold to a religious faith....why continually try to belittle their beliefs, intelligence, and question the right to express such beliefs? By doing so, you prove my point that YOU are the ones who are intolerant and closed-minded. Now run along and google some chart that illustrates some country that is mostly atheistic (albania?) and post to your heart's content about how they are so much better and further ahead, less crime that the USA.
And GAM, I get your point. You have files that you can cut and paste "proving" the evil scullduggery of every republican to ever hold office and the corresponding world crisis they were responsible for. You do the same thing with your selective polliticking that every other spin doctor does. You pick and choose. I could pull enough factoids about Adolf Hitler, while leaving out the bad....and make a case that he was a pretty good guy. That is assuming that no one remembers that it was ummm Kennedy that got us into Vietnam, LBJ that escaladed the whole mess....and Nixon who ended it (probably at the behest of the KKK and other right-wingy religious types, who did so, for nefarious reasons.)
You gloss over the bad (while making a passing comment like, well both have their good and bad. I guess what I'm getting at GAM, is this: You could list policy after policy which could make every republican past/ present look bad. The same approach would yield the same results for the democrats.
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oh, and please please please, will someone bring up the crusades, Belfast, and the salem witch trials again, because THAT explains everything.
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Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:(tabs) wrote:Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:It (SHOULD) not, as it is irrelevant when it comes to governing a country/state/city. But for the last 8 years, religious folks has sided republican thinking that the party is in touch with their belief. In practice the party has not been "Christian" in many ways, well except what comes out of the politician's mouth. Actions speak louder then words.
So why vote Republican?
and what do you think IS a good reason to base your vote on, then? again a religion is a set of beliefs.....so how can you say its ok to vote based one set of beliefs (such as voting for a candidate that is for tort reform) but not on your belief that, say, abortion is wrong? where is the defining line?
and casey schaaf: what the hell was that post???
Base your vote by Parties' actions, history, and possible future plan, not "what god told me." So much happens because people don't know/learn history, so history repeats itself. Staying informed and learning your past makes a better voter if you will.
By voting on faith based, you're subjecting to just that... (ONE) faith. You are not representing the country as whole, because your faith dictates what is right or wrong to what others considers wrong or right and extreme. You can't be doing that on a nation made by immigrants from all around the world with different religions, cultures, races, beliefs.
People should vote on issues at hand, not what your pastor, father or rabbi told you over the weekend. Could people really be that lazy or ignorant or worse...both?
Remove religion and you don't have to worry about conforming to all and makes a better representative.
Sappy96 wrote:Crap, build a time machine and tell the Fore-Fathers to change everything. That they didn't found this country on Christian beliefs.....
Our fore-fathers left England to not live under Crown's rule and religious persecution. Yes, our initial laws were based on what is called "common laws," I would say "common sense laws." No stealing, murdering, etc.
But by late 19th century and 20th, the bible has been playing a stronger influence, by ways of the anthem and money we see.
I personally have no problem with that. But I do have a tremendous problem when government sends tax money to fund a religious establishment.
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Why vote Republican?
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Am I reading this correctly? I shouldn't base my vote according to my religious beliefs because it doesn't represent the country as a whole? What does the country as a whole believe in, because obviously I'm the only one not voting the same as the rest of you. I really can't express how dumb your statement was/ is.
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You simply have a problem with people who don't think/ act/ do just like you. Many of the so-called progressive thinkers and self-proclaimed liberals on this site bemoan the cruel and intolerant religious right. The folks that beg for tolerance and open-mindness are the ones who are entirely intolerant and close-minded to anyone else who doesn't share their same beliefs....as evidenced by the rampant anti-religious diatribes on nearly every post.
So one doesn't believe in God or whatever.....great....you just exercised your free right to do so, and you have the right to talk about why you don't...even try to convert others to your "religon". But why the rabid vehemence towards those who hold to a religious faith....why continually try to belittle their beliefs, intelligence, and question the right to express such beliefs? By doing so, you prove my point that YOU are the ones who are intolerant and closed-minded. Now run along and google some chart that illustrates some country that is mostly atheistic (albania?) and post to your heart's content about how they are so much better and further ahead, less crime that the USA.
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And GAM, I get your point. You have files that you can cut and paste "proving" the evil scullduggery of every republican to ever hold office and the corresponding world crisis they were responsible for. You do the same thing with your selective polliticking that every other spin doctor does. You pick and choose. I could pull enough factoids about Adolf Hitler, while leaving out the bad....and make a case that he was a pretty good guy. That is assuming that no one remembers that it was ummm Kennedy that got us into Vietnam, LBJ that escaladed the whole mess....and Nixon who ended it (probably at the behest of the KKK and other right-wingy religious types, who did so, for nefarious reasons.)
You gloss over the bad (while making a passing comment like, well both have their good and bad. I guess what I'm getting at GAM, is this: You could list policy after policy which could make every republican past/ present look bad. The same approach would yield the same results for the democrats.
(tabs) wrote:Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:Base your vote by Parties' actions, history, and possible future plan, not "what god told me." So much happens because people don't know/learn history, so history repeats itself. Staying informed and learning your past makes a better voter if you will.
People should vote on issues at hand, not what your pastor, father or rabbi told you over the weekend. Could people really be that lazy or ignorant or worse...both?
Remove religion and you don't have to worry about conforming to all and makes a better representative.
this is assuming that all people who vote with their religion in mind vote solely along party lines. quite frankly, that just isnt how it goes. again, the vast majority of my state is democratic. yet, with the exception of the past two elections, they vote predominantly democratic and not republican, the supposed "religious right" even though we have a very high percentage of "religious people".
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do you not realize that people vote based on religious views because they feel that they are not being represented well? in fact, thats one of the biggest reasons ANYONE votes. to condemn someone for voting based on ANY belief system is unwarranted. again, how do you separate voting for a candidate because he or she is pro-life instead of based on their stance on immigration? what is the difference?
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obviously if people vote for a candidate and that candidate is elected, then that means that enough people agreed on the benefits of that candidate. how is that not representing the country? we have a representative democracy here in america and it is set up so that the majority of what people want is done. if the majority of people are religious, how can you possibly say that its wrong? just because you dont personally agree with it?
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so let me ask you a few questions:
first, if you are not religious (or even if you are, but dont vote based on it) what DO you base your vote on? and if you say "the issues" then please explain why you believe what you believe and how that has impacted your voting. then explain to me why you can vote based on your own set of beliefs, but condemn others as ignorant or wrong when they do the same thing.
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secondly, and perhaps ive just missed this in this post, why vote democrat? since you are wanting specific reasons for why people vote republican, i would like to know specific reasons to vote democrat.
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it seems like the biggest problem you have with republicans is that religious people (i.e. christian based religions) seem to gravitate towards them. but you keep neglecting the fact that if the republican candidates or party in general didnt hold the same values as what many of these religious people did, that the religious people wouldnt vote for them. they agree with republican issues so they vote republican. how can that be wrong? because that just makes sense.
sndsgood wrote:there isnt any real good reason to vote republican just like there isnt any real good reason to vote democratic, you should vote for the person you feel will best do the job.
saying that because ex republican jonny did a bad job back in 72 is no diffrent then saying well that kid in the cavalier was an @!#$ so every kid in a cavalier must be an @!#$.
ScottaWhite wrote:So great! Vote for your reasons and not what is good for John 3:16 !!! Yeyyyy for you! You live in America. Now go about your business and let people vote for the candidate who has red hair instead of blonde, wears wingtips versus loafers, who hates cats versus likes 'em, who is for legalization of weed vs. against it. Vote for the person who is for higher taxes versus the guy who wants to lower them. Vote for the guy who wants to limit religious expression, versus the guy who wants to allow it. By doing so, you have exercised your free right to do so.
I might deride you for your motives, but it is still your right. You can hate on people who vote based on religious beliefs all you want, BUT until you get enough hand-picked Supreme Court Justices in place to take away my rights via the courts, (instead of the legislature) then you can't do anything about it except exercise your right to piss and complain. Have fun....and enjoy America.
(tabs) wrote:i think its cute how you keep calling religious people "extremists" and keep devaluing their opinions based solely on the fact that they are part of an organized religion. they believe one thing and you believe another, but somehow your views trump theirs because....? they have just as much of a right to vote for whom they see fit, based on ANY reason they feel like. although they are doing it for the exact same reasons you claim you are--because they also feel that it will benefit the country--even if you choose to gloss over that aspect.
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you think religious people in charge will infringe upon your freedoms? well religious people feel that nonreligious people will trample on their freedoms. its a stalemate so it comes down to who has the more people who agree with them. and thats what happens, with the exception of the 00 presidential race (and i love the fact that dems ALWAYS bring that up but neglect to mention that it has happened how many other times...? cant win em all, bud).
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you say that you want to be convinced to vote republican, but lets be honest....youve made up your mind a long time ago about that. same thing with your views on religious people. only a very small few could be considered "extremists" yet you pretend that all religious people are like that. so really, youve made up your mind and no amount of talking will convince you otherwise. thats fine. but please dont act all high and mighty and smug because you think that your ideas are somehow more important than that of others. after all, isnt that what you are accusing the religious people of doing?
Sappy96 wrote:Ok, what would be different today if Al Gore was Pres for 8 years instead of Bush?
Sorry Mr. Goodwrench GT I will vote for a republican for Pres again because their interests are more inline w/ mine. Nothing you say will change that.
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Calling them by how they are: Extremist. Influence politicians to pass laws to what they interpret from the bible, blow up abortion clinics, protest immorality-- but when it is one of their proud Republicans or Christians they stay mum. They can't just worship on Sunday and keep it for them selfs, no they come knocking at your door trying to tell you live your life wrong. Yet they act and say the darnest things all in the name of god. Yhea, the majority are definitely extreme.
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Yes, I did made my mind up (if Obama wins, I may not vote), which is why I am asking to convince me why I should vote Republican. It is the IN thing to do, right? The country in 2004 was all red, now I wanna know why? What did they so good to get your vote? I am very open minded, hell I may vote Republican for my Governer because his ACTIONS has been great.
And who is acting "high and mighty" (how can you get that from a text and i have not even spoken for my self), please don't confuse that with tell it how it is. Besides all of that is irrelevant to the question and dialogue at hand. Like I said before, I don't want "bible thumpers" making laws to only benefits a select few and worse... give money to religious establishment. That's un-American.
(tabs) wrote:Quote:
Calling them by how they are: Extremist. Influence politicians to pass laws to what they interpret from the bible, blow up abortion clinics, protest immorality-- but when it is one of their proud Republicans or Christians they stay mum. They can't just worship on Sunday and keep it for them selfs, no they come knocking at your door trying to tell you live your life wrong. Yet they act and say the darnest things all in the name of god. Yhea, the majority are definitely extreme.
you keep lumping ALL religious people together. that needs to stop. you also need to stop watching the MSM and getting your soundbites from them. yes there are a FEW that could be considered extremists, but the majority of religious people denounce those extremists...but due to their extremism they keep getting the media attention.
i really have to stop arguing with you beyond this. you seem to have a deep rooted prejudice against religious people. perhaps youve had a few bad experiences...i dunno? but you definitely have a very VERY slanted and jaded view of religious people as a whole, and Christians in particular. you see only one, small, extreme offshoot and choose to base your arguments on that, completely neglecting the other 99%.
i didnt even have to start that video before i realized that you were posting the WBC. if you honestly think they are a representation of Christianity, then you are sadly mistaken. they are a cult and nothing more than that. their actions and values are NOT the same as Christianity and i get tired when nonreligious people trot them out like a horse and pony show and try to act like those people are the norm or something. they have what....150 members? and they are all family? please. and furthermore, for them to even have been a blip on the radar in this argument, wouldnt they have to have some sort of political pull, as you keep saying that "extremists influence politicians to pass laws"? 150 people in the middle of corn fields do not affect washington.
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Biggest problem, religious people? Nope, based on facts alone, there are worse issues on Republicans side, but I do admit, religious extremist IS a problem. I didn't bring up religion someone else did, I just did a rebuttal .
And you say religious extremist vote Republican because candidate/party cater to them, correct? If that is the case, I'll give you a small example of how "Christian" they are. Why are we in wars killing and steal other nation's commodity? Isn't there a important scripture in stone that say: "Thou shall not murder/kill" or "Thou shall not steal?"
Republican: how much are they in touch with their voters?
(tabs) wrote:Quote:
Yes, I did made my mind up (if Obama wins, I may not vote), which is why I am asking to convince me why I should vote Republican. It is the IN thing to do, right? The country in 2004 was all red, now I wanna know why? What did they so good to get your vote? I am very open minded, hell I may vote Republican for my Governer because his ACTIONS has been great.
And who is acting "high and mighty" (how can you get that from a text and i have not even spoken for my self), please don't confuse that with tell it how it is. Besides all of that is irrelevant to the question and dialogue at hand. Like I said before, I don't want "bible thumpers" making laws to only benefits a select few and worse... give money to religious establishment. That's un-American.
voting republican is the "in" thing to do? and you dont think that, just maaaaybe, the democratic candidates for the past 8 years have been @!#$? i mean surely there cant be any reason for voting republican other than being a bible thumping redneck, right? like perhaps we didnt want a neo-hippie like gore in office, or we didnt want a neo-hippie who couldnt make up his mind in office like kerry. we had to vote against them because we're religious zealots. that could be the only reason possible, couldnt it? its easy to look back on the past 8 years and point out all of the problems with the administration. but you somehow think that, what, kerry could have done a good job? please.
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i voted for bush in 04 because i didnt like kerry and didnt want HIM to be president. and you can say "but look at what bush did the last 4 years". yeah, his administration went to @!#$ fast. but is there anyway i could have known that at voting time? hell no. the difference between his first 4 and last 4 years are absolutely astounding. i think he did a pretty decent job the first 4 years around, considering the circumstances. again, now we can look back and say "well there were no WMDs" or whatever else. but we certainly didnt know that at the time. so when it came time to vote in 04, i figured id give him a chance to finish things out instead of a wishy-washy liberal who couldnt muster a backbone, much less a thought of his own. but to think that just because i voted for a republican or against a democrat that i am somehow a religious zealot is either ignorant on your part, or you just mudslinging in order to try and devalue my opinions like you keep doing for religious people.
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:Plainly put. Politicians don't bring religion to law making or spend tax money to religious establishments. Voters exercise your religious right at church, temple, Mosque, home, where ever with friends, family with other religious gatherings, not the White House or any where else in DC. There is a separation of church and state, follow it. That's the American way
I can't make it simpler then that.
Labotomi wrote:Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:Plainly put. Politicians don't bring religion to law making or spend tax money to religious establishments. Voters exercise your religious right at church, temple, Mosque, home, where ever with friends, family with other religious gatherings, not the White House or any where else in DC. There is a separation of church and state, follow it. That's the American way
I can't make it simpler then that.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
This doesn't state nor was it ever meant to prohibit religious views from influencing political decisions as long as the decisions don't promote one religion over others or infringe upon any religion. Tax money can be spent upon religious establishments as long as other religions get the same benefits. Nowhere in the constitution does it mention a separation of church and state, that actually came from letters penned by Jefferson
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."
Nowhere in the constitution does this term exist.
FReQ Z (ikE-Zed) wrote:I vote Republican because if we don't have decent homeland security... nothing else is going to matter.
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:FReQ Z (ikE-Zed) wrote:I vote Republican because if we don't have decent homeland security... nothing else is going to matter.
Our 'Homeland security" will do is, give off the same ability as $50 car alarm: False sense of security.
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:Labotomi wrote:Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:Plainly put. Politicians don't bring religion to law making or spend tax money to religious establishments. Voters exercise your religious right at church, temple, Mosque, home, where ever with friends, family with other religious gatherings, not the White House or any where else in DC. There is a separation of church and state, follow it. That's the American way
I can't make it simpler then that.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
This doesn't state nor was it ever meant to prohibit religious views from influencing political decisions as long as the decisions don't promote one religion over others or infringe upon any religion. Tax money can be spent upon religious establishments as long as other religions get the same benefits. Nowhere in the constitution does it mention a separation of church and state, that actually came from letters penned by Jefferson
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."
Nowhere in the constitution does this term exist.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
Really?
NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion.
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In order to get your VISA or citizenship quicker or gurantee it, you must get married. Homosexual's civil union can't get benefits like married Hetero folks, a 18 year old girl can't get an abortion at 8-10 weeks, or a Hetero couple jointly living together for 20+ years can't get gov't pension benefits because they are not married. Where do you think these laws derive from?
Sounds to me we are respecting the laws of Christianity. No?
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:
If tax money will be spent on religious establishment (I personally would not send a dime), be fair... send to Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Mormons, Jehovah witness, Quakers, Scientologists, etc. Not just Christians. Because this is exactly where it has been going the passed years. Looks like another: "respecting an establishment of ( A ) religion.
Thomas Jefferson and John Locke must be turning over in their grave.
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:
And like I said above. What is more important? What is more important to your household, abortion laws or keep your job (because it is being threaten to go to China) in order to put food on the table?
This is why religion should be left out of politics and campaigns. REAL issues are not talked about, we are BSing on the the rights for homos not to get married, but nobody talks about how come oil refineries has not built and we are paying the price at the pump. The oil IS there, the gas isn't. $55+billion (gross) was made in profit by Exxon alone, you'd think they would spend it on a refinery here? Why no ban on assault weapons? Do we really need to shoot 100 rounds in 10 seconds?
Why so much emphasize on religion and not the problems we face? Is someone afraid to stand up to it?