In general terms i agree with Quick that US healthcare should stay out of government control, because Obama is busy trying to take over every aspect of life, and control it in his own little way.

However, as permanent resident in Canada for 10 years now, i have to say that the Ontario health care system is pretty good.

I've always been able to see a doctor when i need to, i can get appointments same day with my family doctor , and walk-in clinics i've never had to wait more than an hour or two to see a doctor.

Emergency rooms, which should be EMERGENCY only, are flooded with people with colds and flu's, and should be avoided like the plague, because you will wait for 5 or 6 hours, unless you're bleeding like a mofo.

As for expensive treatments, my dad was able to get the best available treatment at the time when he had cancer, and this care was available right to the end, he was also provided with a private room in a hospital in the last few months. His treatments started within days of his diagnosis in one of Canada's leading Cancer Research Hospitals.


In short, if you have a major health issue in Canada, you will get help, and usually it doesn't take too long, IMO.
If you have a minor cut, and you go to Emergency, expect to wait... ER is run on a Greatest Need basis, not first come, first serve...

And where is the money going to come from?

The price of Gas, food and taxes are going to go up to pay for this health care, and it can still fail and then what the hell are we going to do next? My guess would be sale the health care to a private company over seas!
And that’s the CHANGE we can depend on. We are so screwed. Why can’t he just lower our taxes?


"I See No CHANGE"

one of my friends had this discussion with some people from europe when he went to florida on vacation. they said universal health care was the greatest thing in the world, because everytime they went to the doctor, they got cash back for going. but they paid 50-60% of their earnings to fund this bull@!#$.

the average person doesn't go the the doctor enogh to make it worthwhile. a decent health care plan can be had for $100-$200 a month through your employer. too many people just spend money unnecessarily and dont justify purchasing health care, so when something does happen that they need it, they're screwed. stupid lawsuits never help the situation either.




Check out my build thread!

RuggedZ wrote:one of my friends had this discussion with some people from europe when he went to florida on vacation. they said universal health care was the greatest thing in the world, because everytime they went to the doctor, they got cash back for going. but they paid 50-60% of their earnings to fund this bull@!#$.

the average person doesn't go the the doctor enogh to make it worthwhile. a decent health care plan can be had for $100-$200 a month through your employer. too many people just spend money unnecessarily and dont justify purchasing health care, so when something does happen that they need it, they're screwed. stupid lawsuits never help the situation either.

I know!!


Maybe I should quit my job and let other people who work take care of my lazy @SS




"I See No CHANGE"

bk3k wrote:

Quiklilcav will probably say wrote:That's just what THEY(the Liberal media elite) want you to think.

I'm just poking a little harmless fun - no offense Quick.

LOL.

bk3k wrote:On a more serious note, as easily found within those provided links We spend more on healthcare as a percentage of our GNP than any other nation besides The Marshall Islands(and I can't imagine their GNP being very high). Yet... all these countries with some form or another of national health care spend LESS of their GNP on health care?! Yes, I understand that we lead less healthy lifestyles, and yet that overcomes the supposed efficiency problem of letting Government get involved in anything? Insurance companies like the current setup = they make a killing doing as little as possible and part of that is because most markets are very highly consolidated already.

There needs to be meaningful competition for these companies in the way of a public option

The notion that in an industry with 1300 companies, there isn't enough competition, is simply nuts. The government doesn't have to comply with any of the rules it lays out for private companies, and if it loses money, it just sucks it from tax revenue, making it a very uneven playing field.

Also, if you read the health care bill, you will notice that the entire "reform" that they want to do is to limit the companies who can compete (which will no doubt be the biggest companies, who recieve preference in exchange for support). Remember, some of the biggest pharmaceutical companies, and insurance companies, have met with Obama over the past couple of months regarding the bill.

And while other countries may have been able to keep the beaurocracy down in their health care systems, ours has never been able to run anything without destroying it, so I say on that note they shouldn't have the chance to run anything else until they clean up the messes they have already made. (kind of reminds me of dealing with my kids)

Quote:

Quote:

It is nothing but a joke for anyone to claim we do not have the best care in the world. We are the mecca for costly life-saving care, because no other country provides it.

LOL - you can't be serious. Its interesting you used Mecca as an example - because while many, many people BELIEVE Mecca to be a holy place - its much harder to prove that. So... they take it on faith - just as you take your belief that we have any kind of care that is in fact not available in any first world country.

Quite frankly - besides the people rich enough to have no need for any such thing as health insurance(thus shouldn't care about this debate), the people in this country who REALLY DO have the best health care choices available are... on MEDICARE. You might worry that "Government is gonna come between you and your doctor," but as much as I hate to tell you this- there are ALREADY bureaucrats in the way of you and your doctor. Those are free market bureaucrats - particularity insurance companies, but also hospital conglomerates and pharmacies(I should know - I work at one) - they DO decide what kind of "preferred" care you can receive. The drug your doctor wants? The one that is best for you? Too bad, that one isn't "preferred." We get that all day long, every day. Even if your elaborate nightmare scenario actually played out - you wouldn't actually make it any worse that it is - you COULD NOT do so except for a tremendous effort to intentionally do exactly that.

Obama has made statements on more than one occasion regarding the bill when he talks about the fact that, particularly with the elderly, we should be making "smarter decisions" regarding cost/benefit of particular treatments. Remember the one where he sais "maybe having the surgery is not the best thing. maybe just giving her pain medication would be the better thing to do" in regards to a 100 year old woman recieving bypass surgery (she's still living 5 years later, BTW)?

Also, in the bill is a government board to "assure quality of care". In other words, a government beaurocracy to oversee medical decisions.

Quote:

As for Canada's health care - I found this amusing. Conservative Canadian Senator defends Canadian Health Care(since you seem to have trouble believing anything not from a Conservative).

Back to the matters of cost.

Quote:

It’s instructive to follow the health care dollar as it wends its way from employers toward the doctors and nurses and hospitals that actually provide medical services. First, private insurers regularly skim off the top a substantial fraction of the premiums — anywhere from 10 to 25 percent — for their administrative costs, marketing, and profits. The remainder is then passed along a veritable gauntlet of satellite businesses that feed on the health care industry, including brokers to cut deals, disease-management and utilization review companies, drug-management companies, legal services, marketing consultants, billing agencies, information management firms, and so on and so on. Their function is often to limit services in one way or another. They, too, take a cut, including enough for their own administrative costs, marketing, and profits. I would estimate that no more than 50 cents of the health care dollar actually reaches the providers — who themselves face high overhead costs in dealing with multiple insurers.

Now you mentioned our health being a factor in cost - but as you know(and I don't think you'll refute this) lower income people in America are some of the fattest mother @!#$-ers on earth(only in America LOL) largely thanks to welfare, food stamps, etc. But... aren't those are the same low income people who don't have any health insurance? Canadians visit their doctors much more than we do - and pay MUCH less for it. Its not the quantity of our health care need(which is what bad health would result in) that causes us to spend so much.

So no, I don't think that for the most part these fat people are the main reason for our spending too much on health care - but all the things I've listed here would explain that. Well all that and ridiculous lawsuit damage awards. That is something that also needs addressed - but it is NOT all that is wrong with our current system - not by a long shot.

While you are correct that the majority of the poor, un-insured, are unhealthy due to lifestyle, they're not the only ones. Our country as a whole has gone down hill in the productivity and healthy diet department, and it affects health. I did not say this as a problem of cost, but it was in response to the fact that the W.H.O. health care ratings system includes rating the actual health of the country's population. My point was that doesn't directly correlate to the health care system.

Another thing to note: a significant number (I forget the actual percentage, but I'll try to find it again and post it up) of that 46 million uninsured, are people who are wealthy enough to pay out of pocket for their health care, so they do not buy insurance plans. The actual number of people who are uninsured because they "can't afford it" (I contend that a significant portion of these are the irresponsible ones with every electronic luxury in their home) is something like 18 million.

I posted my solutions to the problem in another thread (I forget which one. LOL), and I stand by them. The first one is tort reform, but if you run down the list, I would be curious what you have to say there, as once we reign in the costs, it will be far easier and more feasible to address the problem of those currently unable to afford health insurance.


Just remember this: Obama is using his typical "straw man" argument, where anyone who opposes his plan opposes reform. That is not the case, and people need to keep that in mind. His "solution" is not a solution. He is using the problem as an excuse, as he did with the stimulus bill.

bump

directly from the whitehouse website.................

Quote:

"There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov."

So they want people to be informants against anyone who disagrees with Barry's healthcare plan.

I say we start using that email addy to sign up for porn sites, until it gets spammed to death.

we could take a look at our millitaries healthcare system for soldiers, since that is goverment run. has anyone seen anything good out of that? all i hear is how poor it is.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography

Have you heard or seen any of the clips from the town meetings this week? In one of them (with Arlen Specter, IIRC), a vet stood up and yelled when the congressman stated how great the VA system is, and ripped him apart. If I can find it on youtube or something, I'll post it. It drives a point home very well.

I was mistaken, it was the town hall with Tim Bishop. It's about 10 minutes long, but the part I was talking about starts at around 2:45 if you want to skip to it.




Also, this was from a little over a month ago, not recently as I had originally thought. I found it as a related video watching the Specter/Sibelius one.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, August 04, 2009 4:19 PM

sndsgood wrote:we could take a look at our millitaries healthcare system for soldiers, since that is goverment run. has anyone seen anything good out of that? all i hear is how poor it is.

If its in house, IE done by Officers and not civies that are out to make a buck, its great, if the "insurance" part (tricare) pays some one to do something, it SUCKS.


I know.


Chris





"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

By the way, for anyone who has a doubt that the Obama campaign machine is not still running day and night, trying to embed the image of a leader who will take us into the great new dawn of American greatness in everyone's mind, check out the new logo for the health care reform, on the still-updated BarackObama.com (because every sitting president needs his campaign site still updating 6 months into his term):




His logo is being plastered everywhere. I submit to you that his ultimate dream is for that to be our national flag in the future, and for him to be president (or some newly created title) until his natural death.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, August 04, 2009 5:10 PM

I don't want our government involved in my health care. They just proved yet again their incompetance with the C.A.R.S. program. Until they get social security and the like fixed they need to leave the health care thing alone.



FORGET GIRLS GONE WILD WE HAVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING GONE WILD!

no nonononono

when has guv-ment ever actually made something BETTER once they got there hands on it?


the need to end SS\ and all there other crap that takes money from the "working" class... the ones they claim to be helping.


Chris




"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

I work in an ER as the who registers patients. I see first hand the abuses of the (specifically medicare and medicaid) government supported plans. Medicaid users, are more than half of the time there to get drugs. Because they are unable to get prescriptions, they come to the ER more often. Just a tiny bit of info for you. One of my best friend's dad had to wait over three years to get his Medicare disability benefits, and he has less than 20% use of his heart. He was genuinely unfit for work, and they lost nearly everything in the process. I don't mind when it comes to someone who really has a hard time making ends meet WHEN THEY ARE TRYING!


Philippians 3:10 (Amplified Bible)
10[For my determined purpose is] that I may know Him [that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of His Person more strongly and more clearly], and that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [[a]which it exerts over believers], and that I may so share His sufferings as to be continually transformed [in spirit into His likeness even] to His death, [in the hope]

Obama was at a town hall meeting this afternoon in Portmouth, NH. I swung in there after lunch. I'm curious to hear how the news covers it, as it was a very peaceful protest. I wonder if they'll be talking about the "disruptive radicals" that are shouting everyone down and not having a civilized debate.

People had signs saying "We're not Nazi's, Nancy!", which I particularly enjoyed. Here is a shot of a group opposed to the bill.
Right in the middle is one of my favority signs. It reads "STOP, you're starting to scare George Orwell"



And a sign I saw on the way out that was priceless:



Afterward, I swung over to a parking lot on the side of the runway at the airport (the Portsmouth HS is only 2 minutes from the airport) and watched AF1 take off. Regardless of who's on it, it's kind of cool to see it in person.

Greedy Capitalist Pig wrote:Obama was at a town hall meeting this afternoon in Portmouth, NH. I swung in there after lunch. I'm curious to hear how the news covers it, as it was a very peaceful protest. I wonder if they'll be talking about the "disruptive radicals" that are shouting everyone down and not having a civilized debate.

People had signs saying "We're not Nazi's, Nancy!", which I particularly enjoyed. Here is a shot of a group opposed to the bill.
Right in the middle is one of my favority signs. It reads "STOP, you're starting to scare George Orwell"

Shut up you racist anti-American political terrorist you. You hate America, you hate the world!!!