RuggedZ wrote:one of my friends had this discussion with some people from europe when he went to florida on vacation. they said universal health care was the greatest thing in the world, because everytime they went to the doctor, they got cash back for going. but they paid 50-60% of their earnings to fund this bull@!#$.
the average person doesn't go the the doctor enogh to make it worthwhile. a decent health care plan can be had for $100-$200 a month through your employer. too many people just spend money unnecessarily and dont justify purchasing health care, so when something does happen that they need it, they're screwed. stupid lawsuits never help the situation either.
bk3k wrote:Quiklilcav will probably say wrote:That's just what THEY(the Liberal media elite) want you to think.
I'm just poking a little harmless fun - no offense Quick.
bk3k wrote:On a more serious note, as easily found within those provided links We spend more on healthcare as a percentage of our GNP than any other nation besides The Marshall Islands(and I can't imagine their GNP being very high). Yet... all these countries with some form or another of national health care spend LESS of their GNP on health care?! Yes, I understand that we lead less healthy lifestyles, and yet that overcomes the supposed efficiency problem of letting Government get involved in anything? Insurance companies like the current setup = they make a killing doing as little as possible and part of that is because most markets are very highly consolidated already.
There needs to be meaningful competition for these companies in the way of a public option
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Quote:LOL - you can't be serious. Its interesting you used Mecca as an example - because while many, many people BELIEVE Mecca to be a holy place - its much harder to prove that. So... they take it on faith - just as you take your belief that we have any kind of care that is in fact not available in any first world country.
It is nothing but a joke for anyone to claim we do not have the best care in the world. We are the mecca for costly life-saving care, because no other country provides it.
Quite frankly - besides the people rich enough to have no need for any such thing as health insurance(thus shouldn't care about this debate), the people in this country who REALLY DO have the best health care choices available are... on MEDICARE. You might worry that "Government is gonna come between you and your doctor," but as much as I hate to tell you this- there are ALREADY bureaucrats in the way of you and your doctor. Those are free market bureaucrats - particularity insurance companies, but also hospital conglomerates and pharmacies(I should know - I work at one) - they DO decide what kind of "preferred" care you can receive. The drug your doctor wants? The one that is best for you? Too bad, that one isn't "preferred." We get that all day long, every day. Even if your elaborate nightmare scenario actually played out - you wouldn't actually make it any worse that it is - you COULD NOT do so except for a tremendous effort to intentionally do exactly that.
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As for Canada's health care - I found this amusing. Conservative Canadian Senator defends Canadian Health Care(since you seem to have trouble believing anything not from a Conservative).
Back to the matters of cost.
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It’s instructive to follow the health care dollar as it wends its way from employers toward the doctors and nurses and hospitals that actually provide medical services. First, private insurers regularly skim off the top a substantial fraction of the premiums — anywhere from 10 to 25 percent — for their administrative costs, marketing, and profits. The remainder is then passed along a veritable gauntlet of satellite businesses that feed on the health care industry, including brokers to cut deals, disease-management and utilization review companies, drug-management companies, legal services, marketing consultants, billing agencies, information management firms, and so on and so on. Their function is often to limit services in one way or another. They, too, take a cut, including enough for their own administrative costs, marketing, and profits. I would estimate that no more than 50 cents of the health care dollar actually reaches the providers — who themselves face high overhead costs in dealing with multiple insurers.
Now you mentioned our health being a factor in cost - but as you know(and I don't think you'll refute this) lower income people in America are some of the fattest mother @!#$-ers on earth(only in America LOL) largely thanks to welfare, food stamps, etc. But... aren't those are the same low income people who don't have any health insurance? Canadians visit their doctors much more than we do - and pay MUCH less for it. Its not the quantity of our health care need(which is what bad health would result in) that causes us to spend so much.
So no, I don't think that for the most part these fat people are the main reason for our spending too much on health care - but all the things I've listed here would explain that. Well all that and ridiculous lawsuit damage awards. That is something that also needs addressed - but it is NOT all that is wrong with our current system - not by a long shot.
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"There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov."
sndsgood wrote:we could take a look at our millitaries healthcare system for soldiers, since that is goverment run. has anyone seen anything good out of that? all i hear is how poor it is.
Greedy Capitalist Pig wrote:Obama was at a town hall meeting this afternoon in Portmouth, NH. I swung in there after lunch. I'm curious to hear how the news covers it, as it was a very peaceful protest. I wonder if they'll be talking about the "disruptive radicals" that are shouting everyone down and not having a civilized debate.
People had signs saying "We're not Nazi's, Nancy!", which I particularly enjoyed. Here is a shot of a group opposed to the bill.
Right in the middle is one of my favority signs. It reads "STOP, you're starting to scare George Orwell"
spoiler wrote:Greedy Capitalist Pig wrote:Obama was at a town hall meeting this afternoon in Portmouth, NH. I swung in there after lunch. I'm curious to hear how the news covers it, as it was a very peaceful protest. I wonder if they'll be talking about the "disruptive radicals" that are shouting everyone down and not having a civilized debate.
People had signs saying "We're not Nazi's, Nancy!", which I particularly enjoyed. Here is a shot of a group opposed to the bill.
Right in the middle is one of my favority signs. It reads "STOP, you're starting to scare George Orwell"
Shut up you racist anti-American political terrorist you. You hate America, you hate the world!!!
spoiler wrote:Greedy Capitalist Pig wrote:Obama was at a town hall meeting this afternoon in Portmouth, NH. I swung in there after lunch. I'm curious to hear how the news covers it, as it was a very peaceful protest. I wonder if they'll be talking about the "disruptive radicals" that are shouting everyone down and not having a civilized debate.
People had signs saying "We're not Nazi's, Nancy!", which I particularly enjoyed. Here is a shot of a group opposed to the bill.
Right in the middle is one of my favority signs. It reads "STOP, you're starting to scare George Orwell"
Shut up you racist anti-American political terrorist you. You hate America, you hate the world!!!
Short Hand wrote:spoiler wrote:Greedy Capitalist Pig wrote:Obama was at a town hall meeting this afternoon in Portmouth, NH. I swung in there after lunch. I'm curious to hear how the news covers it, as it was a very peaceful protest. I wonder if they'll be talking about the "disruptive radicals" that are shouting everyone down and not having a civilized debate.
People had signs saying "We're not Nazi's, Nancy!", which I particularly enjoyed. Here is a shot of a group opposed to the bill.
Right in the middle is one of my favority signs. It reads "STOP, you're starting to scare George Orwell"
Shut up you racist anti-American political terrorist you. You hate America, you hate the world!!!
Funny. I have seen NO ONE call any one who does not support the reform with such comments. BUT I do remember anyone against the disaster in Iraq or the Patriot act being called much WORSE.......
IF anything, anyone supporting the reform is being called such things.
Greedy Capitalist Pig wrote:The initial post of this thread has the link to download the bill.
Yes, I have read it. I read almost 200 pages of it before starting this post. On page 16, there is a paragraph that prohibits new private policies from being written after the first day this bill goes into effect. If you are already enrolled in a policy, you're OK, until something changes. As soon as anything changes with an insurance policy, a new policy is written. Since this paragraph prohibits new policies from being written, it means that once anything changes, you're out of the healthcare plan that you have. Around page 172, IIRC, it begins to outline the Healthcare Exchange program. Essentially, it is the goverment approved policies. If a policy is not approved, you can not buy it. So the government will be limiting who can buy what policy, and which companies can offer them. Funny, Obama has been talking about the need for more competition, but the bill clearly limits, and almost eliminates (by virtue of the fact that they have total control over it) competition in the insurance industry.
As for Medicare, there are cuts in the bill. With regard to taxes, the bill does not have anything in there to increase taxes (that I've read so far), but various members of Congress have been talking about it lately, especially since the CBO has projected the cost to be far higher than originally claimed by the Dems.