LOL, no one else wants to say anything? I've been at work.

You're ok Spitfire, I just thought a knowledgable person like yourself would know a little more about the side you're against. You've still only explained examples of adaption, nothing that screams "evolution". If there was anything that proved evolution, we wouldn't even be having this debate.

Let's look beyond rock layers and what's seen in a telescope. The Principle of Causality states that everything is a bi-product of what came before it. The Bible explains that God created the universe and that there is much to existance that is hidden from our view, and that we'll be enlightened when we pass on to the land of no physical limits. There's so much about this universe that doesn't make sense to us, like it's purpose, so this makes sense.

Evolution has the burden of telling us what started the universe, how the universe got started and why we are here, basically playing 'god' and being all knowing. Unfortunately the theory that's supposed to have all the answers can't explain this. That Principle of Causality is killing the theory. Nothing can't start something. The universe couldn't have existed forever, that's like saying "bye I'll see you yesterday!" Laws of time kill that idea, and most evolutionists have dismissed it. In order for evolution to be rock solid evolutionists need to know where the universe came from. You may ask "Where did God come from?" Well, that's beyond our reach. Our 5 limited senses can't tell us this. Yet evolutionists claim the 5 senses of the human body can explain everything. Creationist evolutionists are the minority, for no religion or holy book supports this. Basically you're creating your own religion which is likely to be false in many ways.

Here's a "Why am I here" analysis of evolution:

"Why am I here?" If Naturalistic Evolution is true, you are here for no reason at all. You serve no purpose. Your every action is futility. You will cause no lasting effect, and your life is utterly meaningless. Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die. "Where did I come from?" Everything -- you and I are the result of random chance. The universe is a cosmic accident. "Who am I (what am I worth)?" You are a bunch of random chemicals that came together by chance. We are individually worthless. You are nobody important. If you can't survive by your own strength and cunning, it would be best if you died quickly so that you will not use up valuable resources. "Where will I go when I die?" You will be recycled into a worm or a plant.

Does this really sound right to you? Sorry, but I believe there's a purpose behind this. The Bible says to put your faith in God. I'd rather do that then put my faith in other people who really can't see much more than you and me. All evolutionist scientists can do is look at the physical universe, make a guess and then act like they know everything. You think they have special powers or something? If the universe has billions of galaxies like evolutionists claim, then we see absolutely nothing. That idea messes itself up.

Proving special creation is hard because it didn't happen yesterday. But look around, what do you see? Everything has a special design. I went through this whole thing earlier so I won't again. Creationism has dominated for centuries and centuries. The way I believe this is, hard-hearted people who refused to believe in God finally came up with a theory they can use to combat this idea of a God, and it has deceived so many. Technology? no. Technology hasn't helped evolution at all. That's why over the last 150 years the emphasis has been put on proving evolution, not proving special creation. Why? Look around. There's your proof. Evolution is killing society, with suicide and violence sky rocketing ever since 1968. Then we act suprized when kids bring guns to school and fire away. It's all because of the mentality that all life is meaningless so do whatever the hell you like!

"Why am I here?" Your answer to this question depends on what you believe. Both worldviews are contrary to one another. One is true, and the other is false. Whether you've thought about it or not, your choice of an answer carries enormous ramifications. It's best to consider all the evidence before making either decision. Study the design inherent to all things. Does it imply a Designer, or incredible chance? Study the personal nature of human beings. If you were created, it follows that the Creator is a personal Being. What do personal beings desire above all things? Personal relationships with other personal beings, not physical objects. Physical objects don't grow into physical beings. There's a HUGE gap there.

These are ultimately the "facts". It all comes down to rationalism. <br>

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Not True. Athanasius wrote about created evolution in the 3rd Centerury AD, and it has been RC doctrine since.

He talks about How God is the Prime Mover that started everything in motion, created light and dark, etc. then planted the seeds of life in a series of devine intervetions referred to in Genesis as "days". Keep in mind that day as defined in Genesis are periods of light divided by dark, not "Earth Days" nessessarily (or likely).

How long it took is of little importance, time has no influence over God. You guys argue about things like geological movememnts and species diversity (ignoring the fact that Cheetas are so inbred that their DNA shows them all as siblings). When what really needs to be considered is the begining, the real and ultimate beginning. God said "I am the Alpha and the Omega", meaning "I am the beginning and the end".. For me, little else matters in this aguement.

okay...Lancer...i believe that you severly underestimate how many species there are. Based upon your "facts" about the ark, 522 railroad cars at 240 sheep a piece is 125,208 animals total.

now, again by your logic that there were 7 pairs of every "clean" animal and 2 pairs of every "unclean" animal. Now, because i have no way to discern on what was considered clean or unclean, i'll break it out into a 1:1 ratio of clean to unclean per specie.

now, 7 pairs is 14 animals. 2 pair is 4 animals.

broken in half, you have 62640 total clean animals.
which gives you a total of 4474.285714 total clean animal species--or rounded to 4474.

62640 unclean animals
15660 total unclean species.

Since you claim that evolution could not account for any new species--every specie we have now we had to have had back then. a simple search on the internet reveals that there are AT LEAST 14,000 animal species in the amazon rainforest alone. that's just one rainforest. The rest of the world easily doubles that. At 28,000 species total (very very very conservative estimate--a zoology major could tell you better than i could), that easily trumps the 20,134 that the arc could carry.

Plus, how could insects not count? not all of them fly. same with birds, where did they come from? and also--some bird species can barely fly, how did they get there?

Now, onto misinterpretatuions....

First off, the very bible you read is an interpretation--it has only a slim chance of being exact since it had to be translated from aramaic to ancient roman, to latin, and finally to english--and that's the SHORT route. plus, considering that ALL sects, branches, whatever you prefer to name them, of christianity are all splintered off of the Roman Catholic church--some recently, some as far back as the middle ages, they are all based upon that same bible--assuming it was never re-written since then. Further, how many years did the Church FORBID the layperson to read it? Couldn't it have been doctored up since then?

Regardless--the bible is an aged tome--and who's to say jesus did all the things attributed to him?

Then you have Prophesy...i've only seen numerology studies on the bible, and they hold about as much weight as nostradamus--about a 50-50 ratio. Same as horoscopes, same as any divination.

And on your last point...and i'm sure you've gotten this often...if god DOES exist--in one form or another, why doesn't it reveal itself--in one form or another, unless it just is--and if it just is, it can be omnipotent, omniscent, and onmipresent, but it can't have a take on anything otherwise it would violate it's ver core of being an absolute--which means there's no opposite to it--unless there's a collection of beings or forces that equal it and are opposite of it--and per the christian faith, Satan and his minions can't cut that--so where's the other evil?

Back onto C. vs. E...Evolution doesn't proove everything--neither does creation--EVERYTHING requires a leap of faith...
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The infamous Keeper of the Light</a><b><br>
<i>I'll get out of <u>YOUR</u> country the minute you get off of <u>MY</u> planet!</i></font>

Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

LOL Lancer, I wonder if you are as sick of this topic as I am.. haha

"If Naturalistic Evolution is true, you are here for no reason at all."

Sadly, that may be true. No one knows the meaning of life and religion is a good way to give man some hope. Most animals live only to pass on their genes to the next generation. Look at the Praying Mantis, the male actually sacrifices himself to mate. He lets the female chow down on his head while he mates with her. The reproductive system is not connected to the brain and the male can transfer sperm as the female is distracted by his head end.... most animals exist only to reproduce but man with his soul can comprehend the higher power of a god.

" If the universe has billions of galaxies like evolutionists claim, then we see absolutely nothing"

That is all a matter of faith, I cannot disprove the existence of God and if you bleieve that he created the universe, good for you. We DO see billions of galaxies (the Virgo cluster through Hubble can see millions in that patch of sky) so they do exist. How they got there is supoorted by evidence found by astronomers. Do you believe that God put it all there at the beginning but continues to change since then.. or do you beleive he created it and it doesnt change? The latter is false since we sees stars forming in nebula and stars dying as supernova, so things change in space constantly.


"Proving special creation is hard because it didn't happen yesterday. But look around, what do you see? Everything has a special design. I went through this whole thing earlier so I won't again. Creationism has dominated for centuries and centuries. The way I believe this is, hard-hearted people who refused to believe in God finally came up with a theory they can use to combat this idea of a God, and it has deceived so many. Technology? no. Technology hasn't helped evolution at all. That's why over the last 150 years the emphasis has been put on proving evolution, not proving special creation. Why? Look around. There's your proof. Evolution is killing society, with suicide and violence sky rocketing ever since 1968. Then we act suprized when kids bring guns to school and fire away. It's all because of the mentality that all life is meaningless so do whatever the hell you like!"

Well, the technology has only been around in the last couple hundred years. This technological revolution started us to question the centuries of Church dominance. The Catholic Church killed men for doubting them. Telescopes, microscopes, and all our modern sampling techniques have indeed helped us understand our world better. Look at all the advances in the last cuople hundred of years. Technology is why we have advanced so quickly since the 1700's. Even with all this tech. you cannot EVER prove creation. It is supernatural, untestable, a matter of faith. And about the violence, I hope you are not serious....millions and millions have died in the name of a God in the millenia. It is the number one cause of war in the world and conflict. The life is meaningless argument does not cause conflict since all animals on this planet compete and except for us, have no concept of God at all. I am not as religious as you but I believe in a Lord and Jesus and all the Saints, but I regard Him as a guide for man. He may have created the speck that exploded into the Big Bang but nature carried on from there(evolution). Someone had to put the matter there, right? Sp maybe he did create all matter, but evolution has driven everything since then.

About the wonderous and diverse forms that you say had to be made by intelligence....adaption and evolution could do this just as well. Species isolated or relegated to a single niche will be selected for features that allow them to survive. Maybe you could call it selection, but evolution produces these variations that are selcted for. If no genetic mutations occurred, then all creatures of a species would look the same. If there was no black variation of the Peppered moth, the species would have been wiped out since the white moths did not survive on Post-Industrial blackened trees. Mutation causes variation which causes selection which causes speciation-- there's evolution for ya.

Oh man, my fingers are tired....

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See what I mean about people ignoring Athanasius?

The number of animals that exist now is not really important either. I've done some of my Zoology homework, and I know that there are more species with more diversity now, then there ever has been before, and the growth continues to outpace extinction. There would have been less animals to put on the Ark. The question is, what does the Ark have to do with evolution or creation? Nothing, Biblical story, true or not, it doesn't enter into this argument. If there was no Ark, and no flood (which there was on some level, Gilgamesh agrees), that would not be any type of proof either way. You guys are distracted by your gnostism.

I forgot to mention this earlier..

Keeper said "you still haven't proven the supernaturality of the bible. Why is that tome of text more authorataive than, say the Qoran, the Torah, etc.?"

The Torah is the Old Testament of the Bible anyway, and the Quoran is an extention of the Bible, they can all be valid, mostly. The same God, the only difference is Jesus. The Christian believe Jesus is one of three persona of God, the Jews believe he was a rebellious rabii, and the Muslims believe every work of the New Testament up to but not including the ressurection. With exception of the ancient Summerians, all creation stories world wide are consistant. The Sumerians talked about another planet coliding with Earth, putting the water and life here in that event. Not impossible... And still doesn't rule out creation.

The argument should not be, Evolution vs. Creation, because no amout of evolution can rule God out of the picture.

The argument should be, Design vs. Random mutation. Evolution exists, or at leasted existed, there is much to support that idea. What I don't buy for a second is that random mutation produced the higher lifeforms we have today, and anybody trying to prove it will have an extremely difficult time.

Let's look at a sperm cell... If it was say, just like any other signle cell organism, it wouldn't have the tail.. How did the tail get there? It offers advantage, so it seems that it could have evolved, but, did you know that it doesn't swish back and forth? It revolves, it has a set of devices at its base like a gearbox?!?!? How could random mutation produce this? First the tail? What good is an immobile tail, that would be a disadvantage, and it would die off... OK the gearbox first.. What good it that without the tail? None, no advantage, just wasted energy, another disadvantage and death.

Hmmmmm......

The ancient summerians recorded that modern man was genetically created by aliens who dwelt on the 12 planet of our solar system (Nibiru, aka Planet X) or a Moon of a Brown Dwarf solar companion called the Anunnaki (also referred to the biblical Nephilim), which has at 3600 year orbit through our solar system.

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In the beginning there was nothing....Then God said "Let there be light!". There was still nothing you just could see it.

"Look at the Praying Mantis, the male actually sacrifices himself to mate. He lets the female chow down on his head while he mates with her."

Wow, that's interesting. Sex must be unpopular then But yeah, if you go along with the Bible it seperates us from the "animal kingdom". That's what I go along with. Obviously animals can't produce technology. We're the only creatures that have advanced over time. Ants still build ant holes the same way they did hundreds of years ago. Even "intelligent" animals keep the same bahaviors and never advance. One could rationalize that we have something that they don't, even though some animals have brains nearly the size of ours.

"millions and millions have died in the name of a God in the millenia. It is the number one cause of war in the world and conflict."

That's true, and it's not right. Christian leaders and Christian people have done some stupid things in the past that directly go against the Bible. Modernism did help slow down these catastrophic events. The society here in the United States was in it's best shape ever except when the stresses of war brought us apart. By the way, let's consider this about evolutionist driven mass murder:

"Hitler orchestrated the Holocaust in the name of evolution. He was determined to kill everyone who was not Aryan (generally, blonde haired and blue eyed). Aryans, he thought, were the most evolved and should not have to share the world's resources with any inferior animals (the rest of the world's population). Stalin, a communist (communism being a political philosophy founded upon Naturalistic Evolution), murdered between 60 and 100 million people (the exact figure is uncertain). Pol Pot, a strong believer in evolution, murdered half of his country's entire population. These men were strong believers in evolution and survival of the fittest. If Naturalistic Evolution is true, these men did nothing wrong. If Naturalistic Evolution is true, these men are basic role models." Copyright © 2002 DNA-Double-Helix.net

In Judges 2 we read, "…another generation arose after them who did not know the Lord nor the work which He had done for Israel. Then the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord…[T]he hand of the Lord was against them…And they were greatly distressed" (Judges 2:10, 11, 15).

That's exactly what we're seeing here in this country and others as well. It's hard to deny it. Look at divorce, rape, murder, adultery, suicide, depression, drug use, alcohol abuse, among other things. This is far from a happy, stable, civilized society. Parents (or single parent) are losing control of their kids. This was never a problem in the past. Animals compete to live, and to generate food for us. We don't need to compete to live. Only when evil is introduced do we compete.

I still think that all the variation we're seeing already comes equiped in every animal. Every creature has so many genes (less now than before). Enough is there to cause variation. There are blue eyed genes, brown eyed genes, green eyed genes etc for humans. Has there ever been a mutation for red eyes, purple eyes or black eyes? Only if there's some kind of disease, in which the eyes wouldn't function correctly, and wouldn't spread to the offspring.

off to KOTL...

"First off, the very bible you read is an interpretation--it has only a slim chance of being exact since it had to be translated from aramaic to ancient roman, to latin, and finally to english--and that's the SHORT route. plus, considering that ALL sects, branches, whatever you prefer to name them, of christianity are all splintered off of the Roman Catholic church--some recently, some as far back as the middle ages, they are all based upon that same bible--assuming it was never re-written since then."

2 Peter 1:20-21 “know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, … but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

First of all, the Bible has many many more original manuscripts than any other holy book. The entire New Testament could be rewritten with these scrolls and much of the Old Testament. There's only one missing book, and 7 other verses in the Bible are in question, but that's it. It hasn't been rewritten or altered in any way. There are sects and variations in Christian beliefs, but the Bible is the Bible and can be verified back to it's roots. Christianity states that God wrote the Bible through 44 different men in different parts of the world from all walks of life. It all came together perfectly to form the greatest message of all time. Every book in the Bible is consistent in its message. Going along with that, would God allow anyone to mess up his Word? Doubtful.

"Then you have Prophesy"

668 prophecies have been fulfilled and none have ever been proven false (three are unconfirmed). An honest study of biblical prophecy will show the divine authorship of the Bible. Also archeology confirms (or in some cases supports) accounts in the biblical record. No other holy book comes close to the Bible in the amount of evidence supporting its divine authorship.

"And on your last point...and i'm sure you've gotten this often...if god DOES exist--in one form or another, why doesn't it reveal itself--in one form or another"

I couldn't tell you that because nobody knows God's motives except what he put in his book. Looking at a Christian perspective you have to wonder what the purpose of this less than perfect world is. According to the Bible this is to sort the good from the bad and strengthen the good. So basically this is a test. You either pass or fail. It is said that he does reveal himself to those who receive him, thus making them faithful Christians. If he revealed himself to all, that would ruin this rooting out process unless it's Jesus' second coming.

Whew. <br>

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I saw a show a cuople years ago about those prophesies written in the Bible, particularly the Psalms. But wasnt there a prophesy that the world would come to an end in the year 2000? and an Anti-Christ would rise up and cause a world war that would destroy it? Well, that never happened. I am amazed by the prophesies that DID come true and how close the actual scripture is to actual future events. But didnt the Egyptians also predict the same events in the future in their texts? and Nostradamas?

About the Hitler, Stalin thing... the people that they thought were superior and inferior were all races, not genetically different populations. The genes that cause say eye color, hair color, skin color all determine what race we are. If our parents are say Asian and American, the kids will have characteristics from both races. The Aryans, say were a race from a part of Europe that had blond hair blue eyes. You do not require evolution to create an Aryan, just the right combination of genes. I don't think the different races have much different genetic makeup, maybe a few genes are different, but not a mutation. I don't see different sub-species of humans in the world because some are black, others white. Say if Neanderthals existed still...that would be considered persecution by evolution if we decided to wipe Neanderthals off the face of the Earth since we thought OUR SPECIES was superior to THEIRS.

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Snoshfire, I also have read"Gods of Eden", but I chose to leave out the whole alien genetic manipulation Idea, since everything after the beginning of life is uinimportant. The idea the Nephalim and Niburu are the same thing is speculation on the author's part. Remember that the Sumerians also claim to have visited the Great pyramid, and toppled the "blue humming crystals"... I left all of that out, it doesn't suit the purposes of this argument... Certainly interesting though... That would make the Great Pyramid much oplder than we originally thought.

The Bible clearly states that Jesus will come like a theif in the night, and to be ready at all times. The book never said he would come in the year 2000.

Back to evolution, because it really upsets me how so many assume it's true. Science taught us the earth was flat when the Bible told us it was round. Who was right? Answers in Genesis, the Creation Research Society and the Institute for Creation Research all have the right idea when they state that it's impossible for us to know all the answers based on what we see, and assumptions fill in a lot of those gaps which can give us wrong answers. Creationists have some theories that they admit carry a few assumptions and may be wrong. Would evolutionists admit that?

Few things remain constant over time. Great sedimentary rock layer thicknesses could be produced either by a little water over a long period of time or a lot of water over short periods. Just because it happens slowly now doesn't mean it always happened that way. Mount St. Helens produced 25 feet of finely layed sediment in a single afternoon! It takes millions of years for this to happen? lol! Catastrophic events have the power to change the world very quickly. "The present is the key to the past." News flash: Nothing is happening right now. Gee, I guess that means nothing ever happened! But... we're here somehow. Uniformitarianism is one of the most closed minded ideas ever. Rocks created at Mount St. Helens in 1986 were dated at .35 million years old using notorious evolutionist dating "methods". Again, many assumptions go into this.

There is enough water to cover the entire planet to a depth of 1.7 miles if it were completely uniform. If it weren't for the fact that the Bible teaches it, evolutionists probably wouldn't have any problems accepting a catastrophic flood. NASA insists a flood of this nature occured on Mars. Why not here? Are they too afraid to admit that the Bible might be right?

We have free will, something no other creature has. The Bible explains that well. That's why people don't have to believe in God if they don't want to. Just make sure you know what you are doing... <br>

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"Back to evolution, because it really upsets me how so many assume it's true. Science taught us the earth was flat when the Bible told us it was round. Who was right? Answers in Genesis, the Creation Research Society and the Institute for Creation Research all have the right idea when they state that it's impossible for us to know all the answers based on what we see, and assumptions fill in a lot of those gaps which can give us wrong answers. Creationists have some theories that they admit carry a few assumptions and may be wrong. Would evolutionists admit that?"

Well it just happened that the bible predicted the truth of the Earth being round before science did. That is all. If we had space probes before the Bible was even written (hypothetical of course) we could ahve proven it scientifically. Science proved the Bible right in that case. In the case of evolution, people back in the day of Jesus had ABSOLUTELY no idea how nature worked and had no comprehension of space, chemistry, or geology. Men were just beginning to come up with theories on this stuff. Now we have infinitely better technology that has discovered evidence that evolution is occurring. Read those articles, it clearly states that evolutionist admit there are holes in the theory. Thats why it is still a theory, not fact. It just happens that this theory is supported by evidence both on this world and outside it. A hypothesis is considered true and you have to PROVE it false. So far the evidence for evolution outweighs the evidence against it. As for creation, if the hypothesis is untestable, like creation, the hypothesis is thrown out.

"Few things remain constant over time. Great sedimentary rock layer thicknesses could be produced either by a little water over a long period of time or a lot of water over short periods. Just because it happens slowly now doesn't mean it always happened that way. Mount St. Helens produced 25 feet of finely layed sediment in a single afternoon! It takes millions of years for this to happen? lol! Catastrophic events have the power to change the world very quickly. "The present is the key to the past." News flash: Nothing is happening right now. Gee, I guess that means nothing ever happened! But... we're here somehow. Uniformitarianism is one of the most closed minded ideas ever. Rocks created at Mount St. Helens in 1986 were dated at .35 million years old using notorious evolutionist dating "methods". Again, many assumptions go into this."

If geologic processes worked as quickly as you seem to think, the Earth would be resurfaced every year! Volcanoes sure do effect climate na dtopography, but how often do explosions like St. Helens occur? not too often at all. This was also in just a tiny part of the Pacific northwest, not a whole continent. Plate Tectonics is a proven FACT, we know the plates exist and move only at a rate of 1-2cm a year, if that. Do cannot doubt that it occurs since they have found fossils on Antarctica( no animals today on land), sea creatures in the middle of North america(evidence of uplift and mountain formation), and ages of mountain ranges themselves. Mountains are formed when plates collide with each other. Mountain ranges take millions of years to form. I'm talking non-volcanic ranges because volcanic ranges are only at subduction zones. The Hawaiian islands are the newest end of a ancient chain of volcanic islands following a hotspot from Japan to the cental Pacific. Look at an undersea mapo, you can see all the old islands that have eroded away to become underwater. Erosion is very slow, you dont see canyons eroded in a lifetime do you? Geologic processes are so slow you don't see any changes in your lifetime. Even quakes and earthquakes are minor disturbances.

What source did you use to determine the depth of water the Earth would be covered in? Do you have any idea what a mile of ocean is? Both poles would have to melt to cause this much water to fill the ocean, and this could only happen if the Earth's orbit suddenly changed closer to the Sun for a period. This would also kill off all life and cause a raising of global temoerature by 20 degrees. No ice age would occur since the Earth is now close to the Sun unless God just zapped the Earth to different orbits to @#$@ with out heads. Mars never had a global sea...see the channels and river valleys on Mars? That can only happen on land...there are no underwater rivers. Mars looked the same as the Earth millions of years ago, you don't think Mars had oceans when man was on the planet do you? What happens if Mar's had life, or Europa, how would you explain that? What is aliens exist? Does this prove that God did not create everything since he made man in his image?

The Bible is not an encyclopedia, it is a religious text. No where does it explain natural processes. Assumptions are made based on the story in Genesis and you simply ignore all the evidence. Maybe if you take all my questions and answer them instead if ignoring the ones you cant possibly explain....


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Well this is my 60th post of the month already and I gotta save some for a rainy day....lol I'm gonna have to observe this post from now on.

Lancer: I have to admit you debated with me well. Even though I am an evolutionist, you are by far the most intelligent creationist I've debated this topic with. All others I have debated with have been mostly the opposite, just turning their head and giving me "no" or just changing the subject. I'm spent of this topic anyway and I'm sick of typing essay everytime there is a response to my last essay...

Maybe when they prove evolution one day I'll ressurrect this topic, haha



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ok, everybody who is saying that the bible predicted that the earth was round before science did, is just plain confused.

the ancient greeks were fairly certain that the earth was round, in about the 5th century bc. how did they know?

for one, they figured out what an eclipse was. then they realized that the shadow on the moon was in fact round, which they concluded meant that the earth was also round, since the shadow on the moon was the earth.

secondly, they observed that when coming up on a ship on the sea, they could see the mast of the ship before they could see the body of the ship. they concluded that this was because the earth was round.

thirdly, they calculated the circumference of the earth using triangulation (and were incredibly accurate for their time);
Eratosthenes of Cyrene (276-200 B.C.).. Greek astronomer and mathematician. Calculated the circumference of the Earth and finds a figure of 46,000 km which is close to the present measured value. Also lays down the first lines of longitude on a map of Earth. He also developed a method for calculating all prime numbers: the sieve of Eratosthenes.

no educated person in greece thought that the earth was flat, in the 5th and 4th centuries bc, and im certain they were not reading the bible, since it didnt even exist!

so im gonna have to say philosophers knew the earth was round before the church did.

lancer: "We have free will, something no other creature has."

what do you mean no other creature has free will? dont animals do what they will?
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I'll answer your statements, if that's what you want.

"it clearly states that evolutionist admit there are holes in the theory."

Then why do they dogmatically preach it in public schools as if it's fact? Not that you can answer that, but it shows that something is wrong here, like some group of people are trying to take over with their ideas.

"Plate Tectonics is a proven FACT, we know the plates exist and move only at a rate of 1-2cm a year, if that."

True, but is it a proven fact that they always moved at this rate? There's no way of knowing that. They do the math and figure billions of years or whatever, but again it's uniformitarianism in action.

"Do cannot doubt that it occurs since they have found fossils on Antarctica( no animals today on land), sea creatures in the middle of North america"

I never said I was against the plate tectonics theory. Sea creatures in the middle of North America... rapid flood burial perhaps? You certainly can't rule out that possibility and state that evolutionary ideas are "evidence" based on that. Anything can be turned into evidence if the ideas are twisted around to fit observations such as fossils.

"If geologic processes worked as quickly as you seem to think, the Earth would be resurfaced every year!"

Sure, if catastrophic events happened every year. At that rate, it would be a little hard living on this planet.

"Mountain ranges take millions of years to form."

Uh huh. I heard that somewhere too.

"Erosion is very slow, you dont see canyons eroded in a lifetime do you?"

I haven't seen any catastrophic events happen in my life either. A New Scientist article in 1998 entitled "Flatlands" talks about floods on Mars that craved out canyons, even though the planet has no water today. According to them, it's very possible.

"What source did you use to determine the depth of water the Earth would be covered in?"

I read it a while ago in <i>Refuting Evolution</i> by Jonathan Sarfati, the guy I mentioned before. I looked in the book again, and he doesn't cite anything for that statistic, just other things around it. I'll trust a Ph.D. that has an open mind and makes assumptions in favor of evolution in stating his case. I'm not sure where he got that piece in information though.

"Both poles would have to melt to cause this much water to fill the ocean, and this could only happen if the Earth's orbit suddenly"

Perhaps there were no ice caps, and that the water was within the earth back then. Today, yes maybe that would be the case. Actually the caps <i>are</i> melting because of the weakening ozone layer. The earth's orbit doesn't need to change at all. Perhaps the ice caps are what's left of the ice age. I'm just using the Bible as my basis here, but it could have happened that way. There's nothing showing it couldn't.

"Mars never had a global sea"

It supposedly had catastrophic floods according to R.A. Kerr in the Jan 1998 article in <i>Science</i> "Pathfinder Tells a Geologic Tale with One Starring Role"

"The Bible is not an encyclopedia, it is a religious text. No where does it explain natural processes."

If the Bible explained everything it would be a little hard to carry around. It's already a big enough book as it is. What do natural processes have to do with what God has to say to us?

"Assumptions are made based on the story in Genesis and you simply ignore all the evidence."

Where you got that idea I have no clue. If the evidence was ignored then there wouldn't be an increasing number of neo-catatrophists and creation scientists studying the data. The Bible can be shown to be consistent with much of the data. You like to make strong statements against creation and the Bible. Be careful.

"Maybe if you take all my questions and answer them instead if ignoring the ones you cant possibly explain...."

Right back at ya. There's plenty you haven't explained. I answered just about everything you said in your last post. Happy? Should I write a book? Have I not said enough in this thread? Perhaps you'd like to see a book from someone who doesn't even have an associates degree, I dunno. You think I could make money on a book? Heh

Anyway, I knew that you might want to stop soon because of your member status. You're smart obviously, but I'm still confused as to how evolution is proven. But to each his own. Maybe we can start round 2 next month, lol! j/k. Anyways, cya around. <br>

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brycejmcewen, the belief was very widespread that the world was flat. A round earth had yet to be proven back then, even if some people thought so. Evolution is very widespread now. Since the Bible goes against that, perhaps the same thing can be happening again (an assumption, but like I said before the Bible is consistent with the data and it's not even a science book).

Another thing the Bible states, something that wasn't proven until Galileo's day was that the Earth orbits around the sun, not the other way around.

"what do you mean no other creature has free will? dont animals do what they will?"

Animal behavior is very linear and always has been. That's why their societies don't develope like ours does. They're nothing more than programmed creatures. <br>

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I don't know why I'm posting again, maybe to bring some closure...lol

I just want to say that I don't think evolution is PROVEN FACT, it is still a theory. But after studying natural processes and biology all these years I think I have a solid argument for evolution. I am a college student too so I don't think I'm ready to write any books on the subject, but I've given it a good shot...can't win um all I guess

Well, you did answer all my questions on my last post... I'm not expecting you to answer those on the dozens of others... lol

Maybe when I get my fresh 100 posts next month I'll tackle your last post... but for now I was out late and I'm tired... I'm out...


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I go with Evolution... and here's why


http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=5&i=153460&t=153460 <br>
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<i>Paint to come SOON... Don't ask when. If I knew that, I would say
"Paint to come (insert date paint arrives)." </i>

brycejmcewen....

The Bible in some form did exist before ancient Greece.. Just not any of the New Testament. The Old Testament (Torrah) was an oral tradition existing from the beginnings of civilisation, nobody truely knows how old, the oldest of the stories are, but best guesses put them at 10 000 BC.

"The Bible" in a sense was not written yet, but parts of it did exist.

Man you guys are good at ignoring the church fathers. You have not commented once on the idea from the 3rd Century AD that God planted the seeds of life. The dogma that the church actually teaches. Noooo, you have to come up with you own idea of God's creation, and ignore what biblical scolars have been saying for centuries. People that do that are the reason I don't attend church. People can't seem to read the Bible and understand what it says. Instead they just start spewing off what they think it says, without ever bothering to read it. It's like the priest or minister that condems people, and throws them out of church.. Oh ya, Christ would have wanted that... (sarcasm), he was famous for condemming people for their sin, and never offering forgiveness... Those people suck, and they ruin a beautiful work.

Why is it that 1600+ years ago, the fathers of the church were able to accept that God is the prime mover, and evolution played a part, but modern man, ignores all the evidence, and has to have it one way or the other, not both. People don't seem to understand the beauty of God's work. The God set a process in motion, according to a plan, and it is so subtle, and great, that it is nearly inperceptable. What purpose did the dinosaurs serve? Well for one, they have provided the fuel that drives modern society, allowing us to toil less, and think more. Giving the opportunity for enlightened thought.. We waste it on TV and video games (I do too, so don't think I'm getting upitty). Why the huge mass extinctions? Again, if it weren't sudden, there would be no crude oil. Catastrophic events killing the worlds prehistoric forests provided coal, which led us to oil. It had to happen that way, or it wouldn't have worked.

Yes there is evolution, and yet, there are things that simple natural selection and minor mutation cannot explain. I think social systems within insect colonies are a prime example.. They do not follow a simple model of survival of the fittest, in fact, they are completely inviable as individuals, or mating pairs. They need the colony to survive as a species.. Perhaps an example to our prehistoric ancestors, who only out competed Neandrethals by living in social groups, helping each other. We were the weaker species, and yet we out competed them... Hmmm.

Ever noticed that while all snowflakes are differnet, the ones that are formed (not just ice pellets) all have 6 branches.. They are also all the same.

Then there is the ultimate proof... The universe... Something cannot come from nothing... Something had to exist, and yet it couldn't because you must start from zero.. God is the prime mover, and in my opinion (one I share with biblical scholars from centuries past) has interviened on ocassion to ensure that the system works and stays in balance. Even the 13 deg offset in our Earth's axis is so absolutly nessessary to provide us with a climate we can tolerate, weather patterns that allow us to grow crops, etc...

The systems are too perfect to be random chance.

For those who say, "Why dosen't God reviel himself?", I say he has, but you are blind to it for some reason. All you have to do is take a good look around.. Look at the complexity of a simple tree, or even one leaf. God has revieled himself, in the only way that is safe for humankind. Can you imagine the cais that would follow the appearence of God? We would fall apart, self destruct if the almighty showed himself fully. He showed himself to Mosses, and after that event, no one could look upon Mosses as it would hurt them. God is so powerful that to truely see God, is to lose life, and be forever removed from humankind. He cannot reviel his true form, for it would destroy the creation. What you can see, touch, taste, hear, is the evidence. The fact that you can ponder the creation is the gift.

remember that at least microevolution happens everyday all the time.

examples.

DDT lost it's effectiveness on killing mosquitoes because those that were suseptable to it died out and eliminated those from the gene pool while mosquitoes that were immune to it's effects lived and populated over the ones lost, hence making them no longer affected by it.

Natural selection happens all the time, such as it is a dominant gene in humans to have 6 fingers on a hand, however, this is rare and stays rare because of the stigma of having 6 fingers (though it's usually cut off at birth) and so because of the stigma it becomes less prevalent in the population.

not mention dog breeds, we humans have helped dogs "evolve" into many many differant breeds optimized for many individualized tasks.

however yes there are holes. hole A- why arent there more transitional stages in species today, B- complexity of species genome. it is a theory that as a species gets more complex there are more genes in it's chromatin, this generally holds true however humans have 46 chromosomes and there is a species of shrim that has over 300, quite staggering isnt it.

i think it is safe to say that evolution is the bigging to finding out what really happens, and where we really came from. i dont think we have uncovered the whole truth yet. it almost appears to me that evolution did occur but is movement based with a little devine intervention, i know that may sound weird but that is what im sticking to. <br>
-----I slit the sheet the sheet I slit and on the slitted sheet i sit. there I said it.----

Evolution is acutally starting to be dis proven be scientist. Darwins theory has been disproved for a while. Explain why the animals we have today have not evolved in any way the last 2000 years. If it were true the animals would have changed some how. Now They have adapted to their enviornments but there has not been any development of any sorts. I don't see a ant getting bigger so they can survive or any developments of that sorts.

If evolution were true every thing would be drastically different now than say 2000 years ago.

As for creationism, God created the heavens and the earth. Gensis says it. What is so hard to accept that there is one being in charge of the universe. The Bible and its account of the creation of the earth have been around unchanged for well over 2000 years.

Backing that up Homers the Iliad is one of the oldest books known on earth they found over 643 manuscripts of it. Over 764 lines in the book are disputed as being true. That makes over 15,600 words they think are questionable as being ture to the orginal.

The Bible on the other hand from the New Testament alone there are over 24,000 manuscripts found. In the New Testament alone only 40 lines are disputed as being true, 400 words in doubt of being true.

Now look at the time both books existed Iliad written 900 B.C. Earlyist copy 400 B.C. time span 500 years of existance and only 643 copies made.
Bible written 40-100 A.D. Earlist copy 125 A.D. time span of existance 25 years and over 24,000 copies found.

Now the Dead Sea Scrolls prove the accurcy even more. The book of Isaiah was found completely intact from them. The book of Isaiah out of its 66 chapters only 53- 166 words are being disputed as being true.

The Bible has been around for a very long time unchanged. Is there a reason that it has not been changed. Yes, it is the truth. And God the almighty Lord of heaven and earth would not allow the book to be changed for any reason. Those facts alone start to prove that there is someone much bigger in charge. God exist and he lived on earth in the form of Jesus Christ who died for all our sins.

May God Bless and Keep you <br> " You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that --and shudder." James 2:19

Forgot something If you look at the worlds two largest relgions Muslim and Christianity they both lead back to Abraham. <br> " You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that --and shudder." James 2:19

CrazyChristian... While I agree with much you said, there is ongoing evolution. Viruses and bacteria mostly, both through selection, and emergence. According to a zoologist I heard talking on the subject, there is more genetic diversity now then there ever was before. SARS is a mutated cold virus for example.

As far as the accurasy of the Bible goes. I had a priest explain to me the process of selecting cannon. The general Idea is that copy of the oldest known manuscripts were sent to multiple monestaries for translation. Only the books which came back virtually identicle in there translated meaning were selected for inclusion in the Bible. The text is unfallable, it's meaning cannot be changed and therefore it is cannon. Just supporting further the idea you presented.

Back in the thread a bunch, KOTL talked about the impossibilty of an omnipresent omnicipent God, saying that if it were true, that there is only one, there would be no balance. I wanted to comment, but was busi until now...

Many people have, and some still do, make the mistake of understanding the nature of the holy spirit. Thinking that God can only be good in our terms, and without another God to offset this "goodness" there could be no balance. This gives rise to pagan worship, mistaking the creation for the Creator. God is perfect, God is everything, God does not follow our ideas and ideals, God provides balance. God is the alpha and the omega. Nothing exists exect through God. God has adversaries because God allows choice, Satan is a fallen angel, not a god, not a lesser god, not any kind of god at all. Earth or Gaia is not a god, but there does appear to be a spirit in the Earth, even in the Bible it is mentioned, but notice that it also cried up to God, and is not a god in itself. God's 4 letter name is a reflection of itself in hebrew. In English caracters it is approx.. "YHWH" spoken "Yod-Hei-Vav-Hei". There isn't really a proper pronunciation.. I quote:

"The real Name is BEYOND pronunciation, unless you consider breathing pronunciation.

As the Siddur (prayer-book) says, "Nishmat kol chai tivarech et SHIMCHA." ("The breathing of all life praises your Name.") For the Breathing of all life IS Your Name."

2) The notion of YHWH as "the Breath of Life" accords with a deep sense of God as intimate and transcendent at once. If we have no breath in us, we die. If there is no breath beyond us, we die.

3) Moreover, the real Name of the real God would have to be not a Hebrew word, nor Egyptian, nor Latin, nor Greek, nor Arabic, nor Sanskrit, nor English — not in any language but in some form of expression that both underlies and transcends language: just breathing, which all humans of all peoples do.

4) Still more, Breathing encompasses not only all humans but all life-forms. What the trees breathe out is what we breathe in; what we breathe out is what the trees breathe in. So YHWH as a breathing sound evokes "kol ha'neshama," all breathing beings, and "nefesh chaya," all those in which is the life-breath."

What I'm trying to point outis that because God is the "Prime Mover", there can be only one, anything else is impossible (to me anyway). First there was nothing (to call it "nothing" makes it something, you you have to imagine true nothingness, not even empty space existed.. Absolutely nothing like "". Then God had a thought (kinda, in our sense, it's close) and through "the word" created the Heavens (our idea of nothingness, empty space, suddenly populated with matter), and the Earth. See when you start with zero, the next whole thing, is one. There can only be one, and through "the word" the one, is everything.

Whatever other powers exist, they do so through the one (to me Tri-une) God, and are therefore subservant to the Tri-une God. To follow any other than the one true God would be folly.

Myself, I am Christian. I believe the Apostle's Creed to be true. Though, because of the lessens of Christ, I will not discount other forms of montheism. I believe the hand of God has many fingers, and presents in ways that various cultures can understand. They are not wrong, just taught in a different manner, so to speak. I will follow the lessens I have been taught, and be tollerant of other people, it is not for me to judge.

Lancer: "brycejmcewen, the belief was very widespread that the world was flat. A round earth had yet to be proven back then, even if some people thought so."

i think Eratosthenes of Cyrene (276-200 B.C.) determining the circumference of the earth, and being incredibly accurate, also the fact that the shadow cast on the moon by the earth during eclipse's was also round and the greeks noticed this, shows that many people believed the earth was in fact round.

where in the bible does it actually prove that the earth was round? im thinking most likely it states that the earth is round, with no proof.show me how it proves it, im pretty sure you cant. <br> ......................................................

CrazyChristian and hahahaha: In your last few posts you talkied about the Bible, God, and monothesim in general. One can interpret the Bible anyway he wants, and that is your interpretation of it. Nowhere in your last couple posts do you use science or ectual evidence to prove creationism.

This is turning into a Biblical and religious discussion now, but I guess it doesnt matter anymore...

Crazy: you ahve no idea waht a million years is...1000000 years...a hell of alot longer than 2000 years of our history. Not even 1 million years is enough for macroevolution, the dinosaurs alone existed for nearly 200 million years...

I keep getting drawn into this, I'm sorry I started it...

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My whole point was that there is a mix. The science (what little there is) that supports evolution is good science, and at least very close if not entirely accurate.

Proving the existance of God scientifically is near impossible. God's creation follows rules, and they can be discovered. Then they fall into the realm oif science. For example Newton get's credit for the laws of gravity and motion.