Dude, I am still tired from this thread.. I didn't say anything in the new one.. I doubt I'll add anything constructive to this one. I've stated my believs, I've defended my faith as best I can.. I hope everyone reads this entire thread.. The world will be a better place. This is an example of a civilized and highly thought provoking debate for the most part. It will elevate the conciousness of anyone who reads it.. It is full of good arguments, especially mine
PAX
PS: no matter how it happened, God did it.
SPITfire wrote:^^^^^ huh? 
Whats the quote for?
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quit your whining and Run, what you brung
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Until there is more proof both positions are just blah blah blah.....
I have to say tho, creationism is a pretty ignorant concept....of course since this is the churches point of view that doesn't surprise me.....
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<img src="http://registry.gmenthusiast.com/images/gunslinger88/thumbnail_personal_pic.jpg">
Maybe you should read the thread and understand the topic before you demonstrate your ignorance.
Gunslinger88 wrote:Until there is more proof both positions are just blah blah blah.....
I have to say tho, creationism is a pretty ignorant concept....of course since this is the churches point of view that doesn't surprise me.....
give me proof of the big bang! explain to me how absolutely nothing can create something? see the scientific explaination is pretty ignorant too!
and by the way i'm not disagreeing with you about the creationists arguement being ignorant...(since ignorance is simply lack of knowledge of a subject)...because it takes faith to believe in both accounts and only one view leaves room for faith. <br>
quit your whining and Run, what you brung
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Well, evidence of the Big Bang is out there, but not proof (it is still a theory)... the Universe is expanding... if the movement was tracked backwards in time, all matter in the Universe can be traced to a single point in space.
I don't consider the formation of the Universe to be anywhere near as controversial as Earthly evolution like the evolution of life and humankind. We have proof of stellar evolution and life cycles since we have actual images of galaxies and stars in all different stages of evolution. I guess "evolution" has a different meaning in this sense though...
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SPITfire wrote:Well, evidence of the Big Bang is out there, but not proof (it is still a theory)... the Universe is expanding... if the movement was tracked backwards in time, all matter in the Universe can be traced to a single point in space.
there isn't any evidence of this. this is speculation ona grand scale. and is the evidence of the neccesity of faith in the evolutionary theory(of this situation)
the cause of expansion is not known. so the theory that the cause is a big bang is faith based.
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quit your whining and Run, what you brung
<img src="http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7ybq0/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sig96cav.jpg">
SPITfire wrote:^^^^^ huh?
Whats the quote for?
Sorry, there was some editing that apparently didn't make it into the post. It was supposed to look something like this:
>>
Hahahaha wrote:
I doubt I'll add anything constructive to this one.
...no matter how it happened, God did it.
<<
The idea was to point out the irony of the statements together.
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Well if you read the whole thread, you'll see that I made huge arguments throughout. All I was saying is that I have nothing more to add.
So is it ironic because I did infact add something constructive? Wouldn't that be what it takes to make it ironic?
I didn't add anything, I only re-stated what I have said before..
Say it kinda like Lisa would say "Bart did it".. Only now make the the statement "God did it".
Hahahaha wrote:Well if you read the whole thread, you'll see that I made huge arguments throughout. All I was saying is that I have nothing more to add.
So is it ironic because I did infact add something constructive? Wouldn't that be what it takes to make it ironic?
I didn't add anything, I only re-stated what I have said before..
Say it kinda like Lisa would say "Bart did it".. Only now make the the statement "God did it".
The irony is that you said you had nothing more to add, then you added that "god did it."
I don't feel it would be contructive to offer my personal views of religion, but I will offer a view on the question at hand.
Creationism cannot be proven, nor can it be disproven. Thus to believe in creationism you must have faith. Faith is the basis of all religions. In the same light, evolution, while it has lots of supporting evidence, cannot be proven or disproven. Thus evolution also requires faith. If evolution requires faith, and faith is the basis of religion, it can be said that science can be a religion in the same manner Christianity is.
You don't have to agree with that, but it's a popular argument for sociologists and something to think about. <br>
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give me proof of the big bang! explain to me how absolutely nothing can create something? see the scientific explaination is pretty ignorant too!
Yes, both are, but if you read back to some of my posts on the matter, I have stated that the universe, and everything is cyclic.
Thus, the "ante-universe" along it's collapse, created the big bang, and this created our universe. when this univeral cycle ceases expanding, and begins collapsing, when the collapse hits its terminus, it will create another universe.
In essence, it's not something created from nothing, but rather a change-of-state.
Granted, this is speculation, like everything...
Anyhow, i hate to be the one to bring this up, but in a way, you backed yourself into a corner with the quoted piece in terms of religion:
If god is something, then what created god? <br>
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Oh the authority in your voice Keeper.. Yes, you said it time and time again, but that doesn't explain Jack. The colapsing universe model doesn't work, it has no energy to re-create the expansion, and no motivation either. That is the problem. You speak as if the universe had some magic bit of elasticity that managed to copress and expand with zero loss.. Tisk tisk.
OK, perhaps that was a bit harsh as none of us can pretend to know for sure what really happened, but.. The who or what created God thing has come up yet again, even though, in order to make that argument you must first define what God is. If God created all substance, then God cannot be made of that substance, right? If time is relative, then it is relative to matter and space. Ever notice that any references to three dimensional space can be expresses as factors of the forth dimension of time? IE: From my house to Detroit is 195 km (122 miles) or about 2 hours.. 1 hour or less by air. Exactly 2 hours with an average speed of 61MPH.. etc.. That is one way of showing that time is relative to space. So, if God created all substance, and time is relative to that substance, then God exists outside of the time constraint. In effect, God created time as a consequence of creating all matter and space. If there is no time effect, there is no before, and therefore nothing can exist "before" God. From Nothing came God? Maybe. God existed as "the word" a consciousness at least. The being of God is everything, the Alpha and the Omega.
PAX
[quote=Keeper of the Light™]
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give me proof of the big bang! explain to me how absolutely nothing can create something? see the scientific explaination is pretty ignorant too!
Anyhow, i hate to be the one to bring this up, but in a way, you backed yourself into a corner with the quoted piece in terms of religion:
If god is something, then what created god?
absolutely did not back himself into a logical corner.
as the premise of his entire arguement is that EVERYTHING revolves around faith.
a creator creating the world can only believed by faith. this is the basis of most religions.
science on the other hand has zero basis in faith and actually relies completely on non faith.
however the concepts of the evoultionary theory are completely based on faith which is impossible using science! <br>
quit your whining and Run, what you brung
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however the concepts of the evoultionary theory are completely based on faith which is impossible using science
Are you saying that science doesnt support evolution, or that evolution is faith and therefore cannot be supported by science... I don't see a scientific theory in the same boat as a supernatural entity (religion) so faith may not be the right word for evolution.
I ask this because science supports evolution more than creation. I mean evolutionary theory was founded by scientific evidence!
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Hahahaha wrote:Oh the authority in your voice Keeper.. Yes, you said it time and time again, but that doesn't explain Jack. The colapsing universe model doesn't work, it has no energy to re-create the expansion, and no motivation either. That is the problem. You speak as if the universe had some magic bit of elasticity that managed to copress and expand with zero loss.. Tisk tisk.
Yes it does--as matter compresses, it heats up. Since the universe is considered the alpha terminus of all systems, and no energy is gained or lost in any systems, the very heat of fusion is what can cause it to explode again. The energy we consider in day-to-day activities as "lost (i.e. friction)", but where is it lost to? the rest of the universe, which takes on the energy. In the collapsing universe model, the heat is used as the energy force to counterbalance the collapse, and eventually, overtake the force of collapse.
In this hypothesis, anyway.
quote=Hahahaha]OK, perhaps that was a bit harsh as none of us can pretend to know for sure what really happened, but.. The who or what created God thing has come up yet again, even though, in order to make that argument you must first define what God is. If God created all substance, then God cannot be made of that substance, right? If time is relative, then it is relative to matter and space. Ever notice that any references to three dimensional space can be expresses as factors of the forth dimension of time? IE: From my house to Detroit is 195 km (122 miles) or about 2 hours.. 1 hour or less by air. Exactly 2 hours with an average speed of 61MPH.. etc.. That is one way of showing that time is relative to space. So, if God created all substance, and time is relative to that substance, then God exists outside of the time constraint. In effect, God created time as a consequence of creating all matter and space. If there is no time effect, there is no before, and therefore nothing can exist "before" God. From Nothing came God? Maybe. God existed as "the word" a consciousness at least. The being of God is everything, the Alpha and the Omega.
The thing is, time is not relative to space. Time is not a constant, nor is space. Time has been proven to warp around a heavy gravitational body, like the sun and jupiter. Therefore you can't use it to measure anything beyond the bounds of your given example.
Unforuntately, for your example, it doesn't prove your point. Even if there is a God, and it does exist out of time, it goes back to the same premise. Something cannot come from nothing. What, or who, created this deific entity? That's the very question. If god is outside the universe, then there is something beyond the universe, a selection set--if you will, that contains both God and the universe. That selection set--or rather the entities in that selection set, had to come from somewhere.
Otherwise, If got was always there, then it could be similarly argude that the universal substance to the nth dimension could have always been there as well, and was not created.
Pret:
You didn't back yourself into the corner in the sense of proving that everything is basis of faith--rather a sense of knowing what cannot be proven to others because they haven't the same relative perception that you do (i.e. faith and hypothesis). However, and many i was wrong for pigeon-holing you specificially on this. In the respect of the pro-creationist view, it goes back to, if everything was created, who or what created god? <br>
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Is this the longest post ever on the .org? <br>
<img src="http://www.j-body.org/registry/jive/thumbnail_x-mass02.jpg">
No...more ave more posts...
Content-wise, i think it is... <br>
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Science may have alleviated the miseries of disease and drudgery and provided an arrany of gadgetry for our entertainment and convenience, but it has left us in a world withou wonder. Our sunsets have been redeuced to wavelengths and frequencies.The complexities of the universe have been shredded into mathematical equations. Even our self-worth as human beings has been destroyed. Science proclaims the Planet Earth and its inhabitants are a meaningless speck in the grand scheme. A cosmic accident. Even the technology that promises to unite us, divides us. We are bombarded with violence, division, fracture, and betrayal. Skepticism has become a virtue. Cynicism and demand for proof has become enlightened thought. Is it any wonder that humans now feel more depressed and defeated then they have at any point in human history? Science looks for answers by probing our unborn fetuses. Science even presumes to rearrange our own DNA, It shatters God's world into smaller and smaller pieces in quest of meaning....and all it finds is more quesions.
And all the while, you proclaim the church is ignorant. But who is more ignorant? The man how cannot define lightning, or the man who does not respect it's awsome power? Show me proof there is a God you say. I say use your telescopes to look to the heavens, and tell me how there could not be a God. How can you miss God in science? Even the slightest change in the force of gravity of the weight of an atom would have rendered our universe a lifeless mist, and yet science fails to see God's hand in this.
When we as a species abandon our trust in the power greater than us, we abandon our sense of accountability. Faith, all faiths, are admonitions that there is something we cannot understand, something to which we are accountable. With faith we are accountable to each other, to ourselves, and to a higher truth. Religion is flawed, but only because man is flawed. <br>
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Cynicism and demand for proof has become enlightened thought
Cynics outlive optimists. A cynic would never travel into a jungle, see skulls on poles, and say, "It obviously means, "Welcome Stranger!!!""
One can know how something works, but not lose awe over it. We know a lot about vulcanomics and how volcanoes work, but ask anyone in Oregon or Washington about St. Helens, or in Alaska about Spurr, and how many will not say they are in awe over it?
and lastly:
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When we as a species abandon our trust in the power greater than us, we abandon our sense of accountability
I see it as reversed. When people take faith to the extreme level, they lose all accountability. How many people have died in the name of religions, yet hoe many people are held accountable for it? How many wars fought for god, yet how many of those religious leaders go to bed with the burden on their conscience that XXX,XXX people died because of that. After all, they are warring for God (whether rightly or wrongly)
How many Jewish terrorists take persononal accountability for the palstineans they kill? How many palestinians take personal accountablility for the jews they kill? How many N. ireland terrorists take personal acccountability for all of the people they kill?
While religion can be filled with splendor, it often turns into a pissing contest, and when that happens, all accountability goes out the window.
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Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
I love this topic, not against any ones religion, but our EARTH is based on all religion, man came from hesay she say................
Well does space ever end................................??..........................If it does whats on the other side????????????????????????????something
Is whatever other living thing out there created from adam and eve and saved from Jesus
??????????????????????
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LOL this is back....
I was wondering while this is back up here did anyone here see the shows on Discovery before Christmas? They did shows on the real Noah's Ark and the Three Kings, and also on the Exodus of Moses from Egypt... it was real interesting since they quoted actual scripture and went around coming up with plausible interpretations that may have actually happened. They backed it all up with archaeological and scientific evidence as well... makes you think that the stories in the Bible are "dressed up" versions of more ordinary events, yet still genuine at the same time.
There was also a show the other night on Armeggedon on the History Channel, it is kind of scary how it seems actual events are indicating the end is near...
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Intresting comments and concepts, I've been trying to keep an open mind for the most part,
lets see where I can take this for now, since I'm bored tonight and have squat else to do ... 
If God made the universe, as he is claimed to have done, who or what created God?
Did God create himself ? why do religious people find it difficult to answer this question ?
where is a rational response? there obvious reply almost always seems to be, "God must
have made the universe. If God did not make the universe, who or what created it?" Thus,
they evade the issue and place the burden of proof on the person who asked the question.
Of course there is only one answer is possible in response to this question:
nobody knows who made this alleged god, but it certainly could not have been another god.
otherwise, the god-creating god would be the real god, instead of the god whom he created.
an endless paradox ... the universe must filled with so called GODS.
and speaking of paradox's ..does anyone know about the " The Rock Lifting Paradox "
[IIRC] it goes like this, can God make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? If we assume
the common definition of omnipotence, we encounter a contradiction: If God was omnipotent,
he should be able to create such a rock but then he cannot lift the rock and his omnipotence
breaks down...
This paradox creates an intresting dilemma... Who would really want or need a God who
is not omnipotent, a god who would not be able to change the laws of the universe on behalf
of a sinful supplicant? This paradox does not prove or disprove anything in itself, but it does
point out the inherent logical impossibility of the existence of an omnipotent God.
Oh but wait ... You say," God has always existed ". Therefore, there was no need to
create god. None, No One, Nada, Squat, zilich ... has ever proven that god exists ever,
much less that he has always existed. I will only start concern myself with the creation
of god after somebody has FACTUALLY established that god even exists.
Maybe will never know the conundrum of the creation of the universe,.. most of us can't
even comprehend it's basic size and complexity .. we still don't know a sh*tload of things
about our oceans depths, even with today's tech ..
Hopefully we will have all the answers at some distant time in the future..
the sooner the better ..
Of course there will always be those " NORMALS " that do not appear to need an answer to
this question because any answer would be irrelevant to human existence and happiness.
Whatever the f*ck we may find, it is extremely unlikely to my mind that the ultimate answer
to the secrets of the universe will reveal a " made for T.V. " God, with a flowing white beard
who answers to our " puny @ss " human prayers.
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