People often get this wrong. The Bible says Adam was first, it does not say that Adam and Eve were the only. If you recall the story of Cain, he was afraid to be kicked out of the garden (after killing his brother) claiming "They'll kill me" and God decreed that whoever would kill Cain would suffer seven fold as would their family for seven generations. Lemmick killed Cain by accident and the line of Lemmick was cursed.

People are constantly assuming things. You get a story about the first people and automatically (and wrongly) assume that they were the only family.. Not at all, read it again, or at least read all of the story.

Who here remembers Seth?

PAX

So you don't think that we all came from Adam and Eve? That's interesting, I'll have to read some scripture. So god made 7 generations suffer 7 x as bad as Cain for something Lemmick didn't even mean to do? Nice! I'm starting to like this guy.


_________________________________________________________________
-There is no such thing as objective journalism, there never was.
-The government is best which governs least.
-The forefathers were not necessarily right.
-Religion breeds self-righteousness.
-Ignoring problems rarely fixes them.
-All men are CREATED equal.
-We DO legislate morality.
-Justice does not exist.
-Rely only on yourself.
-Legalize marihuana.
-Gun control kills!

Hahahaha wrote:
Who here remembers Seth?

PAX

I remember Seth, he owes me $20.

j/k, had to be an a$$. It's one of the qualifications I've listed on my resume...

If I understand correctly, Adam was first. Does it specify if Adam was the first to evolve into human or if Adam was *poofed* out of thin air david copperfield style?


.


John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto

Adam was made from the Earth. Hence the saying "Ashes to ashes, dust to dust". God is the potter.

Now what exactly does that mean? It wasn't "poof", there was some kind of crafting involved. He was "made", he didn't just appear.

PAX

Hahahaha wrote:Adam was made from the Earth. Hence the saying "Ashes to ashes, dust to dust". God is the potter.

Now what exactly does that mean? It wasn't "poof", there was some kind of crafting involved. He was "made", he didn't just appear.

PAX

So Adam was "made". Could that craftsmanship be evolution? And what if the Bible is right, but we're just a stepping-stone to what will be Adam, ie, we're still part of the creation... If God is timeless then a few thousand years or past-tense-future-tense writing of the bible wouldn't matter. For all we know Adam will be born a few thousand years from now and be the final step in creation. To a being that doesn't have linear time, the creation of "Adam" may still be in the works.

We're "PRE-ADAM" Human Beings...


.


John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto

Actually, here's a little bit of particle physics info... "creation" is completely impossible. Nothing in the universe has ever been created or destroyed. Nothing.

You burn down a house, the house is still there, it's been transformed into soot and ash and 0.8 micron sized particles. It's not gone, just in another form. The whole "Big Bang" theory is being seen as less and less scientific as time goes on. A huge explosion created matter? HOW?????? Explain the mechanics of that. No such thing is possible in the universe.

Here is basically what science is beginning to find out: #1 The universe has no "end", no center and no edge. #2 The universe never "began", it has always been. Time doesn't exist. #3 Matter is only transformed from one form to another, it can't be destroyed or created. It just is.

Weird eh? As mortal creatures it boggles the mind to imagine that something never "began" and on whom time has no effect but that's how the universe works. But facts are facts. What have we ever seen that has "begun"? Answer me that, and think about your answer really really carefully.

Jeremy Knox wrote:Actually, here's a little bit of particle physics info... "creation" is completely impossible. Nothing in the universe has ever been created or destroyed. Nothing.

You burn down a house, the house is still there, it's been transformed into soot and ash and 0.8 micron sized particles. It's not gone, just in another form. The whole "Big Bang" theory is being seen as less and less scientific as time goes on. A huge explosion created matter? HOW?????? Explain the mechanics of that. No such thing is possible in the universe.

Here is basically what science is beginning to find out: #1 The universe has no "end", no center and no edge. #2 The universe never "began", it has always been. Time doesn't exist. #3 Matter is only transformed from one form to another, it can't be destroyed or created. It just is.

Weird eh? As mortal creatures it boggles the mind to imagine that something never "began" and on whom time has no effect but that's how the universe works. But facts are facts. What have we ever seen that has "begun"? Answer me that, and think about your answer really really carefully.

well to touch on that, if you have ONDEMAND via comcast, check out the science channel from discovery. theres a few events challenging the e=mc2 theory. mainly because it deals with hypernovas, not just supernovas and how planets are formed, but theres new thought on energy reserve and release.

not yet been proven or disproven.

as far as the house deal...agreed.


space dust, for those that know of that, agreed.


the problem that religion and science butts heads on is creation vs science. the boggle i have is if one does believe in creation or the power needed to create, then if you already have something, it takes far less energy to morph than to create. however many religious people tout science as fake/false.

kinda like the saying, christian scientist with appendecitis...

I would agree it is possible that we have not attained "Adam" yet except for one little problem. The Bible goes on to tell about all the people that came after Adam, and the entire liniage of Jesus who was a historical figure who has been and has since left. God is not constrained by time, but we are, and the Bible is for us, so that we might have some limited understanding, I believe Adam is indeed a creature of the past, not the future.

About particle physics. You seem to forget the energy - matter transitions happen all the time. Thing of that burning house, now reduced to ash and carbon, but also to enormous amount s of heat and light energy. We know for sure that matter can be transformed to energy easily so it is resonable to conclude that the opposite is possible. Energy may become matter.

To say the universe has no bounds would be contrary to your argument that nothing con be created. If no matter is created or destroyed then there is a finite amount of it. In fact the total matter / energy "mass" of the universe must be static and unchanging, meaning that there is a limit.

All data points to a begining. There is a point from which all things issue. Some call it the "big bang" but I have never really subscribed to that theory. I prefer simultanious causation. I have already participated in a 30+ page debate about that here on the forum. I don't think we need to revisit all of the old arguments again. Suffice to say, it looks like it is finite, and had a beginning. Nobody agree as to why it seems that way.

Any finite system has a beginning and an end. That is not the same as something from nothing, don't confuse the issue. We have seen many things end, and by that fact alone, they had to have had a begining.

PAX

Hahahaha wrote:About particle physics. You seem to forget the energy - matter transitions happen all the time. Thing of that burning house, now reduced to ash and carbon, but also to enormous amount s of heat and light energy. We know for sure that matter can be transformed to energy easily so it is resonable to conclude that the opposite is possible. Energy may become matter.

To say the universe has no bounds would be contrary to your argument that nothing con be created. If no matter is created or destroyed then there is a finite amount of it. In fact the total matter / energy "mass" of the universe must be static and unchanging, meaning that there is a limit.

All data points to a begining. There is a point from which all things issue. Some call it the "big bang" but I have never really subscribed to that theory. I prefer simultanious causation. I have already participated in a 30+ page debate about that here on the forum. I don't think we need to revisit all of the old arguments again. Suffice to say, it looks like it is finite, and had a beginning. Nobody agree as to why it seems that way.

Any finite system has a beginning and an end. That is not the same as something from nothing, don't confuse the issue. We have seen many things end, and by that fact alone, they had to have had a begining.

PAX

Energy isn't matter, energy is caused by matter like when you make a wave in water by moving your arm in it. It's not creation.

The universe has no boundaries. There isn't a finite amount of matter because the universe is infinite. It never ends. It just goes on forever. Just like it has no age and no time. What's going on now is just a neverending cycle of one thing being transformed into another.

We've seen many things end? Name one thing that was created or destroyed.

Anyone who claims to KNOW if the universe has boundaries or not is kidding themselves. No one knows and no one will know for a LONG time. The big bang theory does not state that the bang created any matter at all, only that the bang distributed it from a dense state. Basically, something blew-up and this resulted in matter (from the thing that blew-up) being spread throughout the universe, this matter formed the universe as we know it today. The real question is what was before the big bang and what was before that, etc. This is not a problem for those that believe that space has always existed and is merely a state of being. IMO we don't have enough info to be certain of any conclusion, but there is observational "proof" that matter did originate from one spot.

There has been things that were destroyed, y'all are arguing about the meaning of "destroyed". If a building is blown to pieces that building is destroyed, it is no longer a building. You can't argue that a building still exists, just in a different form, because if it's in a different form it is no longer a building. Matter can not be destroyed, but what that matter formed can.

Honestly, science has one MAJOR flaw. What is "proof" to one person may not be to another. Technically everything is a theory, we merely come to a conclusion based on our observations. Gravity is WIDELY excepted, but that does not "prove" that it exists. Maybe there is something else at play. I tend to believe in things that have more "proof", does that make me right? Nope, but I still believe in gravity.




_________________________________________________________________
-There is no such thing as objective journalism, there never was.
-The government is best which governs least.
-The forefathers were not necessarily right.
-Religion breeds self-righteousness.
-Ignoring problems rarely fixes them.
-All men are CREATED equal.
-We DO legislate morality.
-Justice does not exist.
-Rely only on yourself.
-Legalize marihuana.
-Gun control kills!

I never said energy was matter, I said energy-matter transformations happen all the time. Think about it. Burn a piece of paper. The mass of the ash and gasses released do not add up to the mass of the intial fuel and oxygen consumed because some of the matter was converted to heat and light energy. Now do you see?

The law regarding energy matter transformation only makes sense in a finite universe. The total amount of energy and matter is unchanging (no matter or enery is created or destroyed) is generally accepted but in an infinate universe that statement is untrue. In an infinite universe matter and energy is in endress supply and cannot be measured.

Recent data show microwave "reflections" bouncing around the universe and suggests some kind of boundry that they are bouncing off of. This also suggests a finite universe. The fact that all things appear to be radiating from a single central point also suggests a finite universe. Anything with a begining is finite.

Then there's the laws of thermodynamics concerning entropy. I'll let you do your own reading on that.

PAX

Hahahaha wrote:The law regarding energy matter transformation only makes sense in a finite universe. The total amount of energy and matter is unchanging (no matter or enery is created or destroyed) is generally accepted but in an infinate universe that statement is untrue. In an infinite universe matter and energy is in endress supply and cannot be measured.

I disagree, the fact that we can't destroy or create matter does not necessarily mean that the universe is finite. Maybe matter is made by some prosess we don't know about. Is the size of the universe and the amount of matter in it independent? Space is a vacuum, so there can be space without matter in it, therefore the size of the universe is not dictated by the amount of the matter in it.

Hahahaha wrote:Recent data show microwave "reflections" bouncing around the universe and suggests some kind of boundry that they are bouncing off of. This also suggests a finite universe. The fact that all things appear to be radiating from a single central point also suggests a finite universe. Anything with a begining is finite.

The term "universe" is poorly defined, so it makes discussion difficult sometimes. The universe is made of matter and empty space, these both existed before the big bang but all of the matter was in one spot. This means that the big bang merely spread matter that already existed, so no beginning there, just a change in form. Space may stretch beyond the boundaries of our universe, would this empty area still be part of our universe? After all, most of our universe is empty anyway. I believe it would. Again, NO ONE knows if the universe or space is finite. There may be other places just like our universe REAL far away, it may go on forever or stop at some point, either way it is nearly imposable to fathom. Were did you here about the microwaves reflecting? I would like to read about it.

Hahahaha wrote:Then there's the laws of thermodynamics concerning entropy. I'll let you do your own reading on that.

What does that have to do with the size of the universe?


_________________________________________________________________
-There is no such thing as objective journalism, there never was.
-The government is best which governs least.
-The forefathers were not necessarily right.
-Religion breeds self-righteousness.
-Ignoring problems rarely fixes them.
-All men are CREATED equal.
-We DO legislate morality.
-Justice does not exist.
-Rely only on yourself.
-Legalize marihuana.
-Gun control kills!

Infinity is not restrained. It's not about size, it's about age. If the universe is infinte, then it is infiniely old. If it is infinitely old, then it is also cold, and dead. All energies equalized an infinitely long time ago. That does not appear to be the case.

I forget where I read about the reflections.. It was about 6 or 8 months ago.. Could have been NASA as they have microwave recievers up in orbit. I forget though, sorry.

So, even if the Big bang is true, it still doesn't answer were it all came from in the first place, where "Simultaneous Causation" at least provides a bit of an answer, granted one that people don't like, mostly because we like to feel superior.

PAX

Hahahaha wrote:Infinity is not restrained. It's not about size, it's about age. If the universe is infinte, then it is infiniely old. If it is infinitely old, then it is also cold, and dead. All energies equalized an infinitely long time ago. That does not appear to be the case.

Nope, no equalization has occured yet. We're still riding the wave of the big bang. Maybe there will be no equalization. Maybe in a few billion years the universe will reach it's largest point and begin contracting until it's ready for another big bang.

ha3 wrote:So, even if the Big bang is true, it still doesn't answer were it all came from in the first place, where "Simultaneous Causation" at least provides a bit of an answer, granted one that people don't like, mostly because we like to feel superior.

PAX

I don't need to know where it all came from. I'm fine with not having all the answers. And I don't need a reason to feel superior, all I need to do is go to Wal-mart and look around...

.


John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto

There is no evidence to support, or even suggest a contraction of the know universe. There is also no concept of a mechanism that might produce such a contraction. The expanding - contracting - expanding universe model is fantacy at this point. Not one shred of support by physical or mathematical model.

PAX

Hahahaha wrote:There is no evidence to support, or even suggest a contraction of the know universe. There is also no concept of a mechanism that might produce such a contraction. The expanding - contracting - expanding universe model is fantacy at this point. Not one shred of support by physical or mathematical model.

PAX

Exactly right. There's also no physical or mathematical model to support that the universe was created by a superior being. What you're calling my "hypothesis", I could call my "faith" and then it becomes indisputable.


.


John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto

Well, if we look at matter and energy as interchangeable, and look at infinity as the only constraint of the universe, it is possible that everything could have happened how it is explained.

After all, size is not the only measure, but also density. And if the only constants are change and infinity, then the big bang could have just been a point in which the universe changes state. Ininfitely dense--infinitessimally small (after all, infinitessimal is infinity in the opposite direction.) At the point we're heading, it could be infinitely large, and infinitessimally dense.

Plus, gravity isn't slowed by distance.

Plus, we can only reliably perceive 3 dimensions, parttally the 4th--who's to say there isn't more that define the universe?

"Creation" could just me a namesake for "Changestate". After all, a baby isn't new life--it's continuing existing life by a changestate.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

True, if you believe that the space has always existed there will be no beginning, but some people do not believe that. It if hard to fathom space having always existed or having a beginning, arguments on ether side can't be proven. There is "proof" that our universe is expanding though and that would support the big bang theory. The entropy argument that Hahahaha brought up is interesting. If the universe is infinitely old, would there still be energy or would everything reach a state of neutrality? For there to still be energy would require some sort of perpetual energy process, right? I'm not sure if the universe has always existed or not, but I would be more inclined to believe in a beginning. Everything we know of has a beginning, so why would space be any different?

We managed to get a little off topic, as usual, but I'm still curious about the belief that evolution can happen in all animals but humans. RoNuS20 never answered my question about different races. If we all came from Adam and eve and there is no such thing as evolution then why aren't we all the same? You have people that are well suited for VERY different environments, compare the escapes to the Africans. You don't believe that we all came from Adam and Eve Hahahaha? You think that god created others after Adam and Eve? What about Genesis 3:20 which states: "And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living"? What about the genetics that "prove" that we all came from one female?


_________________________________________________________________
-There is no such thing as objective journalism, there never was.
-The government is best which governs least.
-The forefathers were not necessarily right.
-Religion breeds self-righteousness.
-Ignoring problems rarely fixes them.
-All men are CREATED equal.
-We DO legislate morality.
-Justice does not exist.
-Rely only on yourself.
-Legalize marihuana.
-Gun control kills!

Or do they prove that we all have one gene in common that appears to run through female lines?

Fair enough. Maybe Eve was the mother of all.. There is the Lilith issue, a demon who seduced Adam and was the first "wife" according to Jewish folklore, not the Bible.

The other problem remains. Who was Cain afraid of?

I don't pretend to know the answers. I can only make guesses to the best of my ability.

PAX

^^^exactly, so do I.

BigJ: consider this scenario. I'll use the Big Bang as a "start", i will not say it was THE beginning, but it is A beginning, and I will use it as a reference.

Consider the big bang as everything in the universe, that can be described in a near-infinite, or infinite amount of dimensions, infinitely dense and infinitessimally small. At the moment of expansion--the "bang", everything expands, and forms accorning to the laws (discovered or undiscovered) governing the universe. Any attractive properties, magnetism, weak electromotive forces, and gravity, while rule in isolated systems, in the whole are negated by the inertia caused by the big bang, and are offset by repulsive forces.

Okay, after cruising around in this state of expansion for an enormous amount of time, all outward energies, like solar wind and thermodynamics, are entropied--but, since matter and energy are essentially different forms of something i will describe with the technical term of "stuff", while you may not have enerygy pushing out, you'll still have matter. Matter that is still affected by gravity.

In space, there is a near-perfect vacuum, and anything not a vacuum has mass and thus is affected by gravity. The inertia of outward expansion without any futher repulsive-style force will cause gravity and attractive forces to take over, slowing everything down because without an outside force (like friction), there is nothing to stop gravity--two gluons at opposite ends of the universe (in theory) with no other outside forces would attract each other and they'd move towards each other. As such, at a point, the univese will be infinitessimally dence and infinitely large--an opposite changestate. As things start to move together, the attractive forces becometronger and inertia, whioch was repulsive, is now attractive, and as things start to kniock together and fuse, creating heat and repulsive forces, they can't overcome the attractive forces. This should continue until the universe is infinitessimally small and inifnitely dense--creating another big bang. Repeat ad infinitum.

As such, Entropy only says that systems will decay--it doesn't say anything about systems that are built on the decay of other systems, as such, the "perpetual motion" is the fact that one system can feed off of another and that all energy is conserved. All of the energy that you produce and conserve in your life, and "waste" is consumed by other systems. It's like the water system--all of the water in the isolated system of the earth has always been here (well, most, a minute amount has left and a minute amount has been created). Hence, you're likely drinking your grandparents, saber tooth tiger, mammoth, dinosaur, and trilibite pee. The combined amount of system feed off of the entropy of other systems.

I hope that makes some sense...


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

I understand your argument completely and I agree with almost everything you said. I do not think that the energy created by a second "big crunch" will be as much as the first crunch, this will limit the amount of times the the state of the universe can cycle and that means that if the universe has always existed that it would have stopped cycling by now. I do not put energy in the same category as matter, I believe that we can waste(destroy) energy. I get energy from food, so if I flail my arms for hours I have used energy. Where dose this kinetic energy go? Through air molecules until the movement stops from friction between them. Will the energy I used always be around in some form? Nope, it was acted upon by friction and has stopped. Did I heat up the air through friction and will that heat-energy last forever? I don't think so but I wouldn't really know. Damn you limited knowledge! * shakes fist


_________________________________________________________________
-There is no such thing as objective journalism, there never was.
-The government is best which governs least.
-The forefathers were not necessarily right.
-Religion breeds self-righteousness.
-Ignoring problems rarely fixes them.
-All men are CREATED equal.
-We DO legislate morality.
-Justice does not exist.
-Rely only on yourself.
-Legalize marihuana.
-Gun control kills!

if matter cant be created or destroyed how did it all get there to begin with? at some point it all had to appear, so that theory contridicts itself. and the bible does not contridict science, infact nothing in the bible has really ever been proven false through science and many many people have tried. there is a book by a former scientist, i cant remember his name, whos live goal was to prove the bible wrong. he was a devoted atheist and a renowned scientist. after spending his whole life trying, he converted to christianity. the evolution thing, the bible does not say its false and im not catholic so its not just a catholic beleif. it does say that gods time is much longer than time here, therefor a day in his time may be thousands or millions of years, hence supporting science and religion. over these millions of years "evolution" may have created life. think about it, adam was created from the dirt, scientists think that humans and everything else came from atoms of things. the earth was formed first and over time a human was formed from it. none of that goes against the bible or science. however, microevolution is the only evolution that has been proven true. almost all of the basis of "evolution" for creating life has been proven false or not creditable. i am very strong in my faith in God and i beleive i am here to live for him because that is why he created me. i also am a beleiver in evolution, but i do beleive it was God whom was controlling evolution. i hope this helps anyone as i could go on a lot more about it but the media clip from Kent H. is pretty good. he came up to UND and i listened to him. www.dr-dino.com if anyone wants to know that is his website. i have all 7 of his cd's and they are very interesting. if anyone has any questions or thoughts about all of this i strongly suggest getting into the word and science yourself instead of taking other peoples words on it because a lot of things from other people are based on only their firm, already set beleifs and will only support their side.

Blackfire wrote:if matter cant be created or destroyed how did it all get there to begin with? at some point it all had to appear, so that theory contridicts itself.

Some believe that the universe has always existed in some form or another, some believe that god created the universe and others admit that they have no idea about the universes origins. Your observation doesn't effect any of these beliefs.

Blackfire wrote:and the bible does not contridict science, infact nothing in the bible has really ever been proven false through science and many many people have tried.

Four words: Age of the earth

Blackfire wrote:there is a book by a former scientist, i cant remember his name, whos live goal was to prove the bible wrong. he was a devoted atheist and a renowned scientist. after spending his whole life trying, he converted to christianity.

This has no bearing on the argument, do you want me to show you ex-believers? I have seen him on TV giving a sermon to some folks, I remember being able to find false statements as he went. I'll see if I can find a vid.

Blackfire wrote:the evolution thing, the bible does not say its false and im not catholic so its not just a catholic beleif. it does say that gods time is much longer than time here, therefor a day in his time may be thousands or millions of years, hence supporting science and religion.

Where does the bible say that gods "day" is longer than ours?

Blackfire wrote:over these millions of years "evolution" may have created life. think about it, adam was created from the dirt, scientists think that humans and everything else came from atoms of things. the earth was formed first and over time a human was formed from it. none of that goes against the bible or science. however, microevolution is the only evolution that has been proven true.

Depends on what you believe is "proof"

Blackfire wrote:almost all of the basis of "evolution" for creating life has been proven false or not creditable. i am very strong in my faith in God and i beleive i am here to live for him because that is why he created me. i also am a beleiver in evolution, but i do beleive it was God whom was controlling evolution. i hope this helps anyone as i could go on a lot more about it but the media clip from Kent H. is pretty good. he came up to UND and i listened to him. www.dr-dino.com if anyone wants to know that is his website. i have all 7 of his cd's and they are very interesting. if anyone has any questions or thoughts about all of this i strongly suggest getting into the word and science yourself instead of taking other peoples words on it because a lot of things from other people are based on only their firm, already set beleifs and will only support their side.

That works both ways.


_________________________________________________________________
-There is no such thing as objective journalism, there never was.
-The government is best which governs least.
-The forefathers were not necessarily right.
-Religion breeds self-righteousness.
-Ignoring problems rarely fixes them.
-All men are CREATED equal.
-We DO legislate morality.
-Justice does not exist.
-Rely only on yourself.
-Legalize marihuana.
-Gun control kills!

the age of the earth has not been proven wrong from the bible and science. basing the earth on carbon dating which says the age of the way earth is now is millions of millions of years old is false because carbon dating has been proven to be in accurate. they have run tests on things that visibly died the same day and the tests have said they were hundreds or thousands of years old already. however, there is a set equation that kent talks about used to predict the pull away of the moon that is set. if you figure that out when it would have collided and made things it ends up being around the same time the bible does say. and i agree it does work both ways, right now im a chemistry and biology major. i dont know everything about science but i am learning. ill post more at a later time when i finish my homework for the week.

and to think there may even be another solar system out there somewhere with a planet that can support life with beings trying to answer the same fawking question................