even then, i think making an official lanugage, in a place as diverse as america, kind of goes against our free speech rights. what about people who cant speak english? your just gonna close the doors on them? thats pretty $(*ty if u ask me.
yes, i know some will say, well they have to learn english......... yea like its that easy for someone coming from a place where they never hear english, its gonna take a while. (im referring to immigrants as a whole, not only mexicans).
and believe it or not, where i live, 90% of the jobs REQUIRE you to speak spanish. and even if its not listed as a requirement, your not getting the job if u dont speak spanish, cause they can easilly get someone that does and pay them the same salary they would have paid a english-only speaking person. trust me, i know a few Human resources admins... and thats how it works.
and just like that other guy said.... in europe mostly everyone knows 4/5 languages, and they dont have a problem with it.... why are americans against it?...................... hmm "english supremacy" comes to mind
perfect example is "bluedeuce's" thread. hes in germany, and in one of his pics, it shows a street sign posted in 4, get this, FOUR languages............ so whats the big deal about 2 here in the USA?
btw, again, where i live, signs are posted in 2 languages... not all of them, but most stores/schools have signs in spanish as well.... heck some stores ONLY have spanish
Ron Carvalho wrote:"On August 1st, 1996, the House of Representatives passed legislation making English the official language of the United States."
http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/officialamerican/banenglish/
How's about posting to something that isn't a satirical post.
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00131 <-- closest to calling English the official language of the USA, but it's an IMMIGRATION bill. This isn't an education bill, or anything of the like. And this amendment will not stand up to a constitutional challenge (because it abridges the rights of non-english speaking individuals in court proceedings because there will be no onus on the state or federal gov't. to provide a translation: meaning the individuals will be unable to assist in their own defence, er go, abridging the rights guarenteed under the 5th Amendment for due process).
As far as the cost of bilingualism, it costs us here about $260 million dollars.. total. We have a little more area and socialized health care.. the cost is minimal.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
I wouldn't move to France without knowing French, and expect people to speak English to me, would you?
You people who speak two or more languages are forgetting the fact that if you grow up with two or more languages, it's easy. It's not so easy for those who didn't. How about those people who have an extremely hard time learning secondary languages? Now they can't get a job because they weren't brought up being taught, or living around two languages? Fair?
If you're going to live in another country, you should learn the primary language. It's not that country's responsibility to accommodate for you, you're the one moving.
Orlandomon wrote:even then, i think making an official lanugage, in a place as diverse as america, kind of goes against our free speech rights. what about people who cant speak english? your just gonna close the doors on them? thats pretty $(*ty if u ask me.
yes, i know some will say, well they have to learn english......... yea like its that easy for someone coming from a place where they never hear english, its gonna take a while. (im referring to immigrants as a whole, not only mexicans).
having an official language would NOT in any way infringe upon anyone's freedom of speech. if someone were in a public area speaking french, the police wouldnt come and arrest them. what an official language does is standardize everything. instead of wondering if your language will be spoken somewhere for a job, or whatever, you KNOW what to expect. and it doesnt disqualify immigrants from anything. i believe if you go to a country, you should speak the language spoken there. english is by far the predominant language here...the only place you run into anything else is where immigrants have clustered together, such as around the borders to mexico, florida, or in certain parts of larger cities (chinatown, koreatown, etc) if you went to russia, do you think you could get by with just speaking english? no way. and english is spoken in every country in the world.
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and believe it or not, where i live, 90% of the jobs REQUIRE you to speak spanish. and even if its not listed as a requirement, your not getting the job if u dont speak spanish, cause they can easilly get someone that does and pay them the same salary they would have paid a english-only speaking person. trust me, i know a few Human resources admins... and thats how it works.
well you live right by the border...what else would you expect? come here to WV, or most other places, and see how much extra your bilingualism gets you. itll look good on a resume and thats about it.
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and just like that other guy said.... in europe mostly everyone knows 4/5 languages, and they dont have a problem with it.... why are americans against it?...................... hmm "english supremacy" comes to mind
europe is a different story altogether than america. imagine if every different state in the US had its own language or dialect. it would almost be impossible to go anywhere outside of your state w/o having signs in a few different languages. thats why europe is like that. plus, they are working towards a unified country over there versus completely separate ones like they have now. but here in america we dont need to have languages printed in 4-5 languages. we only border TWO countries.....one of which already speaks english and the other of which is where we have the problem
when our country was founded the people in charge opted against an official language so not to discourage people from coming here. thats a great idea. BUT, english IS and HAS ALWAYS been our predominant language. to require the people born and raised here to learn a new language just to make it easier for people who come here...? not a good idea. sure, being bilingual is a great skill to have, one that i am working towards myself. but it shouldnt be forced upon the majority just to satisfy the minority. its PC bullsh!t at its worst.
Orlandomon wrote:what about people who cant speak english? your just gonna close the doors on them? thats pretty $(*ty if u ask me.
No, but as stated in my previous post, I wouldn't go to another country and not know their language, or at least without a translator.
Orlandomon wrote:yes, i know some will say, well they have to learn english......... yea like its that easy for someone coming from a place where they never hear english, its gonna take a while. (im referring to immigrants as a whole, not only mexicans).
And the same thing for me! I'm supposed to go out of my way and learn their language, when they immigrate to my country, but they shouldn't have to learn mine? A bit hypocritical if you ask me.
Orlandomon wrote:and believe it or not, where i live, 90% of the jobs REQUIRE you to speak spanish. and even if its not listed as a requirement, your not getting the job if u dont speak spanish, cause they can easilly get someone that does and pay them the same salary they would have paid a english-only speaking person. trust me, i know a few Human resources admins... and thats how it works.
That's fair, why wouldn't they hire the more qualified person. However, like I said, think of the fairness. Somebody who wasn't brought up around that language is at a major disadvantage.
Orlandomon wrote:and just like that other guy said.... in europe mostly everyone knows 4/5 languages, and they dont have a problem with it.... why are americans against it?...................... hmm "english supremacy" comes to mind
It's not that "Americans" are against it. Hell, I'm not even against it. I'm simply saying that if you expect Americans to know 4/5 languages, start blaming the schools, not us lazy Americans. Oh wait, that's right, we should learn how to speak other languages on our own, but not expect the immigrants to do so.
s eyes*
(tabs) wrote:All of what he said
I was going to break down your post and agree with specific parts, but then I realized I agree with it all. We pretty much stated the same thing, and you posted a little before me. Thank you.
Ron Carvalho wrote:(tabs) wrote:All of what he said
I was going to break down your post and agree with specific parts, but then I realized I agree with it all. We pretty much stated the same thing, and you posted a little before me. Thank you.
yeah looks like we posted at about the same time. but what i said i believe the majority of americans can identify with. maybe im conceited in thinking that, but im pretty sure its true. of course the only people who ever speak out on either side of this debate are either the liberal bleeding hearts who want to change everything for anyone that isnt an american, or the idiotic rednecks who cant come up with a better argument than "eets arrr cuntry...speek da langooich errr geeet outtt" who, as irony would have it, have a grasp of the english language just above that of most immigrants.
[quote=(tabs)"eets arrr cuntry...speek da langooich errr geeet outtt" who, as irony would have it, have a grasp of the english language just above that of most immigrants.
I don't know, I tend to give the immigrants who can't speak English well more credit, because at least they're trying.
And I can't even quote correctly... *slaps forehead*
still illegal , but yeah they get a little extra
they should get put on the list higher up than those that cant
The whole Bilingual thing is false. I can speak Korean and English fluently, that did not help me land a job whatsoever. I only encounter another Asian in my position about once a week and they speak English well enough to be understood. If a person who spoke Ukranian and English applied for a job i highly doubt that would give them an edge. If you are going to say being bilingual gives you better oppurtunities, look into it some more. What you really meant to say is "People who speak English/Spanish" get better chances and no that is not true either, maybe in some places but not everywhere.
at work i get calls from people asking to talk to someone that speaks spanish , when they ask me in clear english with little to no hint of any kind of accent
half the time i feel like telling them no one here speaks spanish so talk to me , or talk to no one
if i worked at el chico's tacos i could understand speaking spanish alot more
xell wrote:The whole Bilingual thing is false. I can speak Korean and English fluently, that did not help me land a job whatsoever. I only encounter another Asian in my position about once a week and they speak English well enough to be understood. If a person who spoke Ukranian and English applied for a job i highly doubt that would give them an edge. If you are going to say being bilingual gives you better oppurtunities, look into it some more. What you really meant to say is "People who speak English/Spanish" get better chances and no that is not true either, maybe in some places but not everywhere.
Do you live in an area with a large Korean-speaking community? (Korean speaking meaning they speak it more at home than english?) Bare in mind: Korean is only spoken in about 0.08% of homes, and Spanish is spoken in about 10% of homes. You're talking about an order of magnitude difference between the two.
BTW: The bilingual idea, it's not a bad idea if the community is diverse enough to support it. I'll point to my area, mainly because it's very diverse:
- French
- English
- Itallian
- Arabic (Lebanese/Palistinian/Somalian)
- Greek
- Vietnamese
- Chinese
- Russian
These are all major languages that are spoken at home and in the business place. It makes sense for these people to learn either French or English, but you need to understand that it takes time to learn english (especially if you're talking about coming from a bi or tri-gendered language like French or Russian). Providing Government services in these languages is not a big deal (translation services add a negligible amount to a trial cost).
Ron Carvalho wrote:I wouldn't move to France without knowing French, and expect people to speak English to me, would you?
You people who speak two or more languages are forgetting the fact that if you grow up with two or more languages, it's easy. It's not so easy for those who didn't. How about those people who have an extremely hard time learning secondary languages? Now they can't get a job because they weren't brought up being taught, or living around two languages? Fair?
If you're going to live in another country, you should learn the primary language. It's not that country's responsibility to accommodate for you, you're the one moving.
True, but have you ever BEEN to France? They're pretty accommodating because they are very ethnically diverse. English and French are used interchangably with German, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese. I understand what you're saying (basically: When in Rome, do as Romans do) but it's not a hard and fast rule.
Also, I learned English, Gaelic and French (which are 3 extremely different languages) at a young age, but some people have greater propensity to learn other languages than others... Just like some have greater propensity for learning Math, or running fast. If you have a problem learning other languages, you just get to cope with it... I can't speak French or Gaelic worth a damn anymore, but if I were in France or Quebec, or Ireland, I'd at least try to speak the language of the land. I don't think it's beholden to the state to accomodate everyone 100% of the time as far as language, but it it's not going to cost all that much to do it anyhow, what's the problem?
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote: True, but have you ever BEEN to France? They're pretty accommodating because they are very ethnically diverse. English and French are used interchangably with German, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese. I understand what you're saying (basically: When in Rome, do as Romans do) but it's not a hard and fast rule.
Actually, the French are becoming a bit overrun by other nationalities who really don't care about France. It's like the joke about how you can always tell if you're in France because someone will have smashed into you 56 times with a lorry and then set your car on fire. As for the French being accomodating... well, that's a little like how the Swiss were accomodating, emphasis on
were. One of my co-workers was from France and moved to Quebec because he was getting death threats from people who really meant it.
I really do think that we'll see another Nazi-like regime in Europe within the next 20 years. Sad to say but every ounce of history is being stripped from Europe in favor of a melting pot ideal that doesn't work because the people on one side, who are all for diversity, seem to think that throwing cultures unfamiliar with the west in a run down appartment complex with no job and no prospect for a future is a humane thing to do; and the people on the other side, who are coming over, have been raised in a hard violent culture and have little respect for their hosts. So it's kind of not gonna work without a little bit more empathy from both sides.
As for Mexicans. I've met a few people in Texas that were so American that you could only tell because of their last name. So no matter how many come over, I doubt it'll have much of an effect on the US. Besides, I'm pretty sure people will learn English pretty damn quick once they see how much money can be made that way. That's the great thing about capitalism, there's always an monetary incentive somewhere to conform to the status quo.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:True, but have you ever BEEN to France? They're pretty accommodating because they are very ethnically diverse. English and French are used interchangably with German, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese. I understand what you're saying (basically: When in Rome, do as Romans do) but it's not a hard and fast rule.
You're right, I haven't. You may also be right, they could very well be pretty accommodating. I'm also glad you get my point, it's the principal; When it Rome, do as the Romans do.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Also, I learned English, Gaelic and French (which are 3 extremely different languages) at a young age, but some people have greater propensity to learn other languages than others... Just like some have greater propensity for learning Math, or running fast. If you have a problem learning other languages, you just get to cope with it...
You're right, some people are better with Math, or running fast, but these people also have a choice to do those activities daily. If you're not good at math, you don't become an accountant. If you can't run, you don't become an Olympic athlete.
What about those who aren't proficient at learning languages in an area that is ethnically diverse though? Are they forced to struggle through learning a language because of the immigrants? I believe that they shouldn't have to, and that the immigrants should be the ones to struggle with a language, if anybody has to.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:I can't speak French or Gaelic worth a damn anymore, but if I were in France or Quebec, or Ireland, I'd at least try to speak the language of the land.
I agree. I've taken Spanish classes in school and I've tried to learn. Actually the schools I attended in Arizona and Florida required Spanish as a class. Is that fair? Sure, because they mark you depending on how you progress, not at how good you ultimately are. Also, if I went on vacation to say Mexico or Spain, I would try my hardest to speak the language. However, I wouldn't even go on vacation, let alone MOVE there unless I knew somebody who was proficient with Spanish, or a translator.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:I don't think it's beholden to the state to accomodate everyone 100% of the time as far as language, but it it's not going to cost all that much to do it anyhow, what's the problem?
It's not so much a monetary problem, but it's an adaptation problem. Try switching the United States to the metric system in the span of 2-3 years. See what happens.
As far as the metric system: The US will conform. You're already driving cars with more metric bolts than not, and you can legally pop someone if they don't give you a litre of cola.
I understand the US is slow to adapt, but it's going to happen. And if you're going off the beaten path in a foreign country, you're going to need to either speak the language like a local (which in Farsi or French isn't easy) or be able to trust someone who does. And I have been to France, and while I could have spoken english very comfortably the entire time, I spoke French as often as I could... I likely butchered it, but at least I tried to get along and meet them half-way instead of expecting them to come to me.
Knoxfire:
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Actually, the French are becoming a bit overrun by other nationalities who really don't care about France. It's like the joke about how you can always tell if you're in France because someone will have smashed into you 56 times with a lorry and then set your car on fire. As for the French being accomodating... well, that's a little like how the Swiss were accomodating, emphasis on were. One of my co-workers was from France and moved to Quebec because he was getting death threats from people who really meant it.
They're getting the overflow from Germany.. Spain never got pushed to bring in immigrants. A lot of people were brought in after WWII from North African countries (particularly Algeria), and they were never compelled to conform but many did... now that's not the case. They're being encouraged to not conform and because of the ghettos (seriously, the arab/muslim ghettos in some areas of France are terrible) and the fact that French government officials take the right to free speech very seriously (even if it's hate-speech, or borderline).
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I really do think that we'll see another Nazi-like regime in Europe within the next 20 years. Sad to say but every ounce of history is being stripped from Europe in favor of a melting pot ideal that doesn't work because the people on one side, who are all for diversity, seem to think that throwing cultures unfamiliar with the west in a run down appartment complex with no job and no prospect for a future is a humane thing to do; and the people on the other side, who are coming over, have been raised in a hard violent culture and have little respect for their hosts. So it's kind of not gonna work without a little bit more empathy from both sides.
Well meaning, but myopic liberalism versus incompetant and treacherous conservatism? I'll take the well meaning liberals because at least you can fix those mistakes: the fact that the ghettos have been made is basically the warehousing of Muslims. There is a way to fix the problem, but I don't know it. As far as respecting their hosts, they're getting sandwiched into cubicles that are smaller than batchelor apartments, and it's 4-5 people per slot.
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As for Mexicans. I've met a few people in Texas that were so American that you could only tell because of their last name. So no matter how many come over, I doubt it'll have much of an effect on the US. Besides, I'm pretty sure people will learn English pretty damn quick once they see how much money can be made that way. That's the great thing about capitalism, there's always an monetary incentive somewhere to conform to the status quo.
Definitely.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:As far as the metric system: The US will conform. You're already driving cars with more metric bolts than not, and you can legally pop someone if they don't give you a litre of cola.
I agree, that could and probably will happen. I was simply stating it as an example, albeit a bad one. Learning a new language is a lot harder than switching to a new measurement system.
I await the day when we convert to metric since I really don't want to learn how many feet equal a mile (5,100 or so) where as there are 1000meters in 1 kilometer (makes sense to me). But honestly, we've lost sight of the original topic. The vet was somewhat justified in taking the flag down but he could have just as easily walked in and told them they were flying them wrong. Onto the next topic:
English as an official language: I know alot of mexican immigrants. How many speak english? All of them. How many are illegal? None of them. And I'm in Oklahoma so I'm fairly positive that there are illegals elsewhere in the state. I have friends from foreing countries. What language do they speak when they talk to me and everyone else? English. Do any of them have english as a first language? No. I have 5 Turkish friends, an Italian friend, and some Arabic friends who all speak English fairly fluently. OU actually has courses for people to take english and learn it, it's called the TOEFL, and all the foreign students take it before being admited to OU. I'm not sure what people are complaining about since the majority of Americans speak english and it's pretty much required to get anywhere in life, so why not make it official?
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* Student of the University of Oklahoma. Go Sooners!
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James Larsen wrote:I await the day when we convert to metric since I really don't want to learn how many feet equal a mile (5,100 or so) where as there are 1000meters in 1 kilometer (makes sense to me).
1320 feet in a quarter mile, so 5280 would be a mile
James Larsen wrote:But honestly, we've lost sight of the original topic. The vet was somewhat justified in taking the flag down but he could have just as easily walked in and told them they were flying them wrong.
Agreed.
James Larsen wrote:Onto the next topic:
English as an official language: I know alot of mexican immigrants. How many speak english? All of them. How many are illegal? None of them. And I'm in Oklahoma so I'm fairly positive that there are illegals elsewhere in the state. I have friends from foreing countries. What language do they speak when they talk to me and everyone else? English. Do any of them have english as a first language? No. I have 5 Turkish friends, an Italian friend, and some Arabic friends who all speak English fairly fluently. OU actually has courses for people to take english and learn it, it's called the TOEFL, and all the foreign students take it before being admited to OU. I'm not sure what people are complaining about since the majority of Americans speak english and it's pretty much required to get anywhere in life, so why not make it official?
Agreed again.
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ToBoGgAn
Sunday, October 07, 2007 10:06 AM
wow, that has to be the first post of Weebel's I agree with, minus the K-bar (who really carries one of those around as a civilian)
WTF
You would be suprised how many people have and carry kabar's with them.
As far a knowing better..... If for some reason you moved to mexico, or any other country for that matter..... would you fly an american flag over the national flag for the country you where in? I'm willing to bet that something would tell you... hey this probably isn't a good idea.
If they just had the mexican flag ONLY up there... it wouldn't have been a big deal.
As far as speaking english... I can understand if a newer imigrint to this coutry can't speak english well as long as they are trying to learn. If you are going to move to america.. take an english class, and if you can't afford it, at least make a point to try in learn it anyway you can. I don't speak spanish... but I know how to say more things in spanish than some mexicans living in this country can say in english... it shouldn't be that way. If you are going to move here and try to make a better life for yourself.. learning our language is part of doing that.
I'm actually trying to teach myself Spanish for the fun of it... so If I can do that... not having a need too.. these people can at least learn english so they can interact with people and co-exists.
I personally don't have a problem with people of mexican origin as long as they speak enough english to carry on a basic conversation.
The problem I have is with the Somalians I have to work with.... half of them that speak english, do so soo poorly that I can't understand what they are saying... I've gotton to the point that I'm just starting to tell them that I can't understand what they are saying and I walk away. I have to deal with this crap everyday... if you wan't something... talk so I can understand you... and if you don't wan't to learn english well enough to talk to someone... than screw you... I'm not helping you.
It would be different if they hadn't lived here that long and they where actually trying.. but a lot of these people just don't care.
It also depends on the mentality of the people you're talking about.
Some immigrants who are interested in making the US their home are going to actually try and do the right thing: Residency/Green Card then Citizenship.
There are others that are just working on the cheap so they can send money home and eventually go back. I think that in that case, you're paying into an unofficial foreign policy.
As an aside, due to the high Canadian Dollar, we're starting to have to deal with Mexican illegal immigrants... great.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
^pretty soon you might have to deal with "U.S." immigrants
i know im considering it...... sometime in the future if our govt doesnt get its act together.
It depends if we'll let you into the country.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
